Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Religious Special Pleading
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 208 of 357 (830670)
04-04-2018 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by ringo
04-04-2018 4:43 PM


ringo writes:
And circumcision is legal.
Yes, because of special pleading. If the cutting of the genitalia of 7 day old babies was proposed by as a new religious sect today, both you and I know that it would not be allowed.
Does shooting yourself in the foot "harm" your argument?
Consent.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by ringo, posted 04-04-2018 4:43 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by ringo, posted 04-05-2018 11:54 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 212 of 357 (830698)
04-05-2018 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by ringo
04-05-2018 11:54 AM


ringo writes:
Special pleading hinges on whether or not the act is justifiable. Circumcision is justifiable on the grounds of religious freedom.
Religious belief does not grant people rights to harm others that otherwise they wouldn't have. We know this because we do not allow fgm. It's simply a matter of history that the circumcision of male babies is allowed. If it didn't exist today, it would not be allowed for a new religion - an obvious point you have failed to challenge a dozen times or more.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by ringo, posted 04-05-2018 11:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 04-05-2018 12:33 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 214 of 357 (830700)
04-05-2018 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by ringo
04-05-2018 12:33 PM


ringo writes:
And yet people clearly do have that right, so the justice systems must not be using the same definitions as you are.
Some modern countries do not allow religions to have that right; it was removed because it was found to be harmful. Several modern countries are now challenging the right - Iceland is the current example in the news.
Rights are granted and taken away by our secular laws, they are not god given and they change as we learn more. Currently the male cicumcision of babies is a historical anomoly which will be stopped eventually by all modern societies. Arguing for its continuance is merely special pleading.
There's no need to challenge that. You might even be right about that.
If we accept that a practice is so harmful that we wouldn't allowed it to start, why would we allow it to continue?
If the Jews had never been persecuted, you might be able to get away with predicting that the slope will not be slippery. But we do remember history.
We can agree then that this is purely a historic anomoly. We are prepared to continue harm babies because Jews were persecuted historically? Presumably then you would therefore have no objection to allowing jewish circumcision but not Muslim (male) circumcision?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 04-05-2018 12:33 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by ringo, posted 04-05-2018 1:33 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 217 of 357 (830704)
04-05-2018 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by ringo
04-05-2018 1:33 PM


ringo writes:
That's what I'm sayng. in fact, it has little to do with religion at all. It's about individual rights.
Jewish circumcision is entirely religious.
As for individual rights, you have put the superstition based rights of the parents above the rights of the child not to be harmed. What right have you to do this?
I'm not arguing for circumcision. I'm arguing for individual freedom.
You are arguing male circumcision. You have already conceded that parents do not have the freedom to circumcision females: your position is therefore not one of freedoms.
People do not have a right to harm children. And the child has a right not to be harmed. The balance of freedoms is clearly in favour of the child.
My position remains more or less consistent:
Well you're half right.
As you have abandonned the special pleading argument of Jewish history, you're left with the personal freedom to harm another versus the personal freedom not to be harmed by another.
It's very obvious where the balance lies. You're in an untenable position.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by ringo, posted 04-05-2018 1:33 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by ringo, posted 04-06-2018 11:49 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 222 of 357 (830753)
04-06-2018 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by ringo
04-06-2018 11:49 AM


ringo writes:
Jewish religion is also religious - but circumcision is not.
According to the chief rabbi of the UK, Jews circumcise their boys entirely for religious reasons. It is a requirement of their religion. You're factually wrong.
I haven't done that; society has.
No. Society has never made a decision on it; it's a historical anomoly. Currently most countries are looking the other way but several Western democracies have already made it illegal. For very obvious reasons.
They should.
Then your position is untenable. FGM is illegal in most Western democracies; the maiming of girls in this way is abhorrent. Parents do not and should not, have the right to harm their children. You're on the wrong side of history and I find it difficult to believe that you actually hold this obnoxious view.
The reality is that I'm in the same position as the justice systems of most modern democracies. Your position may become tenable some day but now it is not.
This is a silly argument. The correct position is what is morally right today, not what might be legally right in the future. If you admit that it will change - and we can see that it is - then it's a wrong today. The position is only as it is because of special pleading.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by ringo, posted 04-06-2018 11:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 04-06-2018 1:06 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 224 of 357 (830756)
04-06-2018 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Modulous
04-06-2018 12:40 PM


Modulous writes:
Circumcision. I didn't say we agreed on all cases. Unless you think scarring a child's face, arms, legs, etc by removing skin from them for no medical purpose should be something parents are free to do. It's certainly not something they currently are free to do.
Sadly ringo appears to think FGM is ok if the parents want it. If he'll allow that, he'll have absolutely no problem with a little facial scarring.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Modulous, posted 04-06-2018 12:40 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 04-06-2018 1:14 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 228 of 357 (830761)
04-06-2018 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by ringo
04-06-2018 1:06 PM


ringo writes:
You should try reading what I wrote: "As long as doctors do circumcisions for non-religious reasons, circumcision is not a religious issue."
I did read what you wrote, it's irrelevant.
You could say that slavery was a historical anomaly. One or two changes don't necessarily indicate a trend.
One or two? You're not that ignorant of history. Child labour, women's emancipation, abolition of capital punishment (sic). The list of progressive social reforms that 'injured' somebody else's priveldeged rights is very long.
There is no "correct position", Mr. Absolute.
Of course their fucking is. It is not correct to shoot your neighbour in the head just for fun. Neither is it correct to cut off a child's clitoris without consent or medical reason. Some things are absolutely wrong.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 04-06-2018 1:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by ringo, posted 04-07-2018 11:46 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 230 of 357 (830763)
04-06-2018 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by ringo
04-06-2018 1:14 PM


ringo writes:
I think it should be an individual decision. Denying a woman the right to make her own decision is the same as denying her the right to make her own decision about abortion. It's the same kind of oppression as forcing her to be circumcised or forcing her to have an abortion or forcibly sterilizing her.
You're equivocating. We're talking about parents forceably mutilating children - not the women making their own choice. The children do not make an individual decision.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 04-06-2018 1:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by ringo, posted 04-07-2018 12:02 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 237 of 357 (830792)
04-07-2018 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by ringo
04-07-2018 11:46 AM


ringo writes:
Don't be silly.If doctors do it for non-religious reasons, how can it be a religious issue?
This is such a dumb argument it seems not worth answering. What dictors do is totally irrelevant, are you really denying that Jews don't perform circumcision for religious reasons? An Aztec removing a heart in a human sacrifice to the gods can't be a religious practice because a doctor sometimes does it too? I think you've lost the plot.
Abortion, prohibition of alcohol, prohibition of drugs.... The list of ending government interference in individual freedoms is also long.
Yeh, we change the law when we think we got it wrong. Circumcision is one such required law change.
Are you being deliberately dishonest or did the goalposts wander off on their own volition? We were talking about male circumcision specifically.
The goal posts are stuck were they started - special pleading. You are arguing that in the case of Jewish male circumcision, the right of freedom of choice for the parents to cut their baby son over-rides the rights of the baby not to be cut until he has the ability to consent.
You extend that right to FGM which is an abhorrent practice. You respond that there are no absolutes, I tell you that of course there fucking are - if FGM isn't absolute enough for you how about shooting your neighbour in the head for fun? Does my right to have fun override my neighbour's right to life?
There is quite obviously an absolute. Or maybe you think shooting people in the head is OK too?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by ringo, posted 04-07-2018 11:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by ringo, posted 04-07-2018 12:56 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 239 of 357 (830797)
04-07-2018 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by ringo
04-07-2018 12:56 PM


ringo writes:
Are you claiming that doctors perform circumcisions for religious reasons?
No, I'm claiming that what doctors do is irrelevant. Now answer my question - are Jews circumcised for religious reasons?
Are you aiming to ban only religious circumcisions? Talk about doubling the height of the religious freedom barrier.
You have this shitty habit of pretending to be really stupid. And if you continue, I'm going to change my mind about prendindig.
I am indeed arguing that religious based circumcision of children below the age of consent should be banned. This is perhaps the 40th time I've said it. i've faulted on my self-imposed ban of relentless repetition several times now. I know your tactic is to never, ever give up no matter how stupid and repetetive it becomes, but you know, some of us prefer scratching our arses to feeding a troll.
Troll writes:
Doctors don't remove hearts.
And who do they get to remove the hearts they replace them with, trolls? Aztecs?
There go the goalposts again.
There you go avoiding answering again. You can't answer can you?
There quite obviously isn't. You can't equivocate deliberate murder with a relatively minor procedure that the child is unlikely to remember. There's a continuum of "harm" from none at all up to murder. It's ridiculous to pretend that you can assign an absolute value to every point on the scale.
And yet you just did. You think deliberate murder is wrong. Fine, we agree. The bible agrees. Society agrees. All societies agree. So there *is* an absolute. Now I think that FGM is also an absolute and so do all modern Western democracies but you don't - you think it's fine. You're on the wrong side of history.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by ringo, posted 04-07-2018 12:56 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 04-08-2018 2:15 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 250 of 357 (830855)
04-08-2018 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
04-07-2018 6:08 PM


Faith writes:
I would think that being a bone fide member of the Jewish community ought to qualify as "necessary for the welfare of the individual affected."
Why? It is obviously possible to be a Jew without having a lump cut out of your dick. In fact the only requirement is that you're born of a Jewish mother.
The formal position of the religion though is that male babies must be circumcised. If we accept that this process causes harm to the baby - and it's impossible not to given the evidence - how can it be 'necessary for the welfare of the indivdual affected'?
Are you implying that the uncircumcised child will be ostracised by the Jewish community?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 04-07-2018 6:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 04-08-2018 4:14 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 253 of 357 (830898)
04-08-2018 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by ringo
04-08-2018 2:15 PM


ringo writes:
What's irrelevant is why Jews are circumcised. As long as circumcision is practiced in a secular context, you can not call it a religious practice.
Watch my lips, it's not me saying it's a religious practice, it's the head of the Jewish religion.
I asked if you want to ban ONLY religious circumcisions. Because that would be blatant religious discrimination.
I want to ban all non-medical circumcision of children. We happen to be talking here about Jews.
Well, no, not really. "Deliberate murder" is defined by law and there are a fair number of exceptions. So it is not an absolute
My example was shooting a neighbour in the head for fun. Can you obfuscate that?
You think it's an absolute except for the exceptions: non-modern, non-Western, non-democracies, etc.
Nope I think it's absolute and so do modern Western democracies. As we learn more, we get to understand that harming people for no sensible reason is wrong. You and some less developed countries think it's ok. History shows their errors.
Ironically, it's the modern Western democracies that are trampling on a woman's right to choose.
Women are able to choose to mutilate themselves when they are actually women.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 04-08-2018 2:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 04-08-2018 3:40 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 255 of 357 (830900)
04-08-2018 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by ringo
04-08-2018 3:40 PM


ringo writes:
There is no head of the Jewish religion
The Chief Rabbinate of Israel (Hebrew: הרבנות הראשית לישראל‬, Ha-Rabanut Ha-Rashit Li-Yisra'el) is recognized by law[1] as the supreme rabbinic and spiritual authority for Judaism in Israel.
Here in the UK, we have our own Chief Rabbi, and he tells me that according to his book, the circumcision of male babies is a religious act. So, I guess I'll go with his view over yours thanks.
Why distinguish between medical and non-medical?
'Cos, you know, one is necessary in order to function properly and the other isn't.
Clearly not, since they all define it differently.
Forgotten shooting your neighbour in the head so soon? How convenient.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 04-08-2018 3:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 04-09-2018 11:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 257 of 357 (830905)
04-08-2018 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
04-08-2018 4:14 PM


Faith writes:
It certainly affects the status of the child in the eyes of the community.
I expect it might in some. Time this rediculous, primitive practice stopped then isn't it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 04-08-2018 4:14 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 266 of 357 (830969)
04-09-2018 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by ringo
04-09-2018 11:50 AM


Ringo writes:
Ask him if a Christian doctor performing a circumcision on a Christian baby in a Christian hospital is performing a Jewish religious act. My guess is that he'll say no.
Which is obviously irrelevant.
Necessity doesn't enter into it in either case.
If it's a medical necessity it does. If it's merely cosmetic then it should require consent from the person being circumcised.
Are you forgetting that we were talking about an absolute definition of murder? There is none.
Except we both know that shooting your neighbour in the head for fun actually IS murder. Whacky huh?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 04-09-2018 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 04-10-2018 11:51 AM Tangle has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024