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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 196 of 447 (831047)
04-11-2018 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Percy
04-08-2018 7:53 AM


Re: Ted Nugent Goes on Hate Filled Tirade
Nugent's comments are remarkably consistent in their emphasis on fact-free accusations and judgments.

Supposedly, we are seeing the new, moderated speech Ted Nugent and not the one that told Obama to suck on his machine gun.

Ted is infinitely ignorable.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Percy, posted 04-08-2018 7:53 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Percy, posted 04-12-2018 9:04 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17744
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 197 of 447 (831118)
04-12-2018 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by NoNukes
04-11-2018 2:43 PM


Re: Ted Nugent Goes on Hate Filled Tirade
NoNukes writes:

Ted is infinitely ignorable.

I'm making sure I ignore him in all his commercial expressions.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by NoNukes, posted 04-11-2018 2:43 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Phat, posted 04-13-2018 5:04 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 198 of 447 (831181)
04-13-2018 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Percy
04-12-2018 9:04 AM


This from NPR:
How Often Do People Use Guns In Self-Defense?

quote:
  • The latest data show that people use guns for self-defense only rarely. According to a Harvard University analysis of figures from the National Crime Victimization Survey, people defended themselves with a gun in nearly 0.9 percent of crimes from 2007 to 2011.

  • "The average person ... has basically no chance in their lifetime ever to use a gun in self-defense," he tells Here & Now's Robin Young. "But ... every day, they have a chance to use the gun inappropriately. They have a chance, they get angry. They get scared."
  • Guns just don't add up...unless one believes the argument that an unarmed populace can be controlled by an armed oppressive government.

    Even then, simply owning a gun is no guarantee that the average person knows how to use it.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 197 by Percy, posted 04-12-2018 9:04 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 199 by Tangle, posted 04-13-2018 5:14 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 6182
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.0


    Message 199 of 447 (831183)
    04-13-2018 5:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 198 by Phat
    04-13-2018 5:04 PM


    Re: This from NPR:
    quote:
    Japan has one of the lowest rates of gun crime in the world. In 2014 there were just six gun deaths, compared to 33,599 in the US. What is the secret?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-38365729

    Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 198 by Phat, posted 04-13-2018 5:04 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 17744
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.6


    (1)
    Message 200 of 447 (831188)
    04-13-2018 6:25 PM


    All Americans know that the solution to school shootings is to arm teachers. There's nothing that could go wrong and everything that could go right. Even our president, the smartest man in world (ask him, he'll tell you, but don't ask him right now because against the advice of his lawyers (naturally) he's on his cell to fellow co-conspirator Michael Cohen), knows we have to arm teachers.

    But as obvious as this is, now comes news that possibly casts doubt on this best of all solutions. Stoneman Douglas Teacher Arrested After Forgetting Loaded Gun at Beach, says the New York Times headline. Sean Simpson, interviewed after the shooting as willing to consider being an armed teacher, this past weekend left his Glock 9 mm in a beach restroom where it was discovered by a homeless man who fired a shot into a wall, killing it instantly.

    But not to worry because of course this is just an isolated incident. We all know it is incredibly rare for people to ever get angry or depressed or mentally ill or careless, so let the arms flow. Shootings can happen anywhere, so we have to arm not just teachers but WalMart clerks, beauticians, postal workers, surgeons and receptionists, to name but a few.

    But we can't stop there. Americans are winners, and it's not enough that we lead the wealthy countries of the world in gun death rate by at least 3 or 4 times, we should lead by at least 10 times or 20 times or more. We'll have to take proactive measures to achieve this, of course. We'll need a law that everyone be armed with guns, safeties off, in your hand at all times with finger on the trigger. I can see some problems with things like typing, bagging groceries and juggling, but we'll adjust.

    --Percy


    Replies to this message:
     Message 201 by Phat, posted 04-22-2018 4:24 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11309
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    (1)
    Message 201 of 447 (831659)
    04-22-2018 4:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 200 by Percy
    04-13-2018 6:25 PM


    Shooters Get Too Much Media Attention
    The latest incident, Naked Gunman at Waffle House
    again has images of the shooter emblazoned across the media, which in my mind would be all that many deranged minds would seek-notoriety!
    Comments?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 200 by Percy, posted 04-13-2018 6:25 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 202 by Coragyps, posted 04-22-2018 7:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Coragyps
    Member
    Posts: 5349
    From: Snyder, Texas, USA
    Joined: 11-12-2002
    Member Rating: 3.5


    Message 202 of 447 (831676)
    04-22-2018 7:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
    04-22-2018 4:24 PM


    Re: Shooters Get Too Much Media Attention
    And the apparent shooter in Nashville had previously had his AR15 taken away, but the police gave it back to his dad, who gave it back to him.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 201 by Phat, posted 04-22-2018 4:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 203 by xongsmith, posted 04-23-2018 12:26 AM Coragyps has not yet responded

        
    xongsmith
    Member
    Posts: 1856
    From: massachusetts US
    Joined: 01-01-2009


    Message 203 of 447 (831691)
    04-23-2018 12:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 202 by Coragyps
    04-22-2018 7:05 PM


    Re: Shooters Get Too Much Media Attention
    Coragyps adds:|

    "but the police gave it back to his dad, who gave it back to him"

    it seems that would make him an accomplice who should be charged as well.

    Edited by xongsmith, : fix grammar

    Edited by xongsmith, : No reason given.


    - xongsmith, 5.7d

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 202 by Coragyps, posted 04-22-2018 7:05 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 204 by NoNukes, posted 04-23-2018 11:47 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

        
    NoNukes
    Inactive Member


    (1)
    Message 204 of 447 (831704)
    04-23-2018 11:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 203 by xongsmith
    04-23-2018 12:26 AM


    Re: Shooters Get Too Much Media Attention
    it seem that would make him an accomplice who should be charged as well.

    I don't know if I can agree with that. But the situation is totally bizarre. The police took the guns away from his son. Why would they give the guns back to his dad if the son was not supposed to have them? If the shooter-to-be was not supposed to have the guns, why didn't the police keep them? Why on earth would the police be obligated to give the guns to a family member?

    Given all that, I don't see any way that pop is an accomplice absent some more facts having to do with knowing his son's specific state of mind. But even more pressing a question is why was his dad even put in the position of guarding his son's access to firearms?

    Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

    We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

    Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

    I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 203 by xongsmith, posted 04-23-2018 12:26 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 205 by Rrhain, posted 04-23-2018 8:49 PM NoNukes has responded

      
    Rrhain
    Member
    Posts: 6349
    From: San Diego, CA, USA
    Joined: 05-03-2003


    Message 205 of 447 (831748)
    04-23-2018 8:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 204 by NoNukes
    04-23-2018 11:47 AM


    Re: Shooters Get Too Much Media Attention
    NoNukes writes:

    quote:
    Given all that, I don't see any way that pop is an accomplice absent some more facts having to do with knowing his son's specific state of mind.

    No, there's no need to "know his son's specific state of mind."

    Where did the father get the gun? From the cops. Who took it away from his son.

    Therefore, the father knows that the son is not supposed to have a gun. After all, the cops are not in the habit of just giving guns to people. But, he gave his son the confiscated weapon anyway.

    There is a reasonable case to be made. Whether it survives scrutiny in the court is precisely why the court is there. But, this is not a frivolous charge.

    That the cops didn't seize the weapon is, indeed, a legitimate question, but it doesn't mitigate the father's neglect.


    Rrhain

    Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

    Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 204 by NoNukes, posted 04-23-2018 11:47 AM NoNukes has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 207 by NoNukes, posted 04-24-2018 6:50 PM Rrhain has responded

        
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 17744
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 206 of 447 (831792)
    04-24-2018 5:59 PM


    Chilling Parkland Shooter Timeline Animation
    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/96960910-132.html

    Sorry, doesn't appear to be embeddable.

    --Percy


        
    NoNukes
    Inactive Member


    Message 207 of 447 (831795)
    04-24-2018 6:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 205 by Rrhain
    04-23-2018 8:49 PM


    Re: Shooters Get Too Much Media Attention
    No, that is not correct. The police also take cars away from drunk folks. They may even give the car to a family member when they arrest the drunk. That does not imply that the owner cannot have his car back. When you say that he was not supposed to have a gun, what kind of legal "not supposed" do you mean?


    After all, the cops are not in the habit of just giving guns to people.

    I don't know what to make of this statement. How does it advance your case?

    There is a reasonable case to be made. Whether it survives scrutiny in the court is precisely why the court is there. But, this is not a frivolous charge.

    Then make the case.

    I will give you some things to think about while you do that.

    1. Unfortuntately, being mentally ill and disturbed is not sufficient legal reason to be denied a gun.

    2. Parents are generally not responsible for their children's crimes, and are certainly not responsible for the crimes of a 29 year old adult even if he is living at home.

    3. Neglect, which you have suggested requires that there be a required duty which the dad failed to carry out. That means a legally required duty, and not just something Rrhain wants to happen and did not.

    4. The police position is that they are unware of any law that Reiinking would have violated by being given his guns back.

    So, I think you'd have an uphill battle charging dad for his role. But I'm willing to entertain arguments.

    Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

    We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

    Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

    I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 205 by Rrhain, posted 04-23-2018 8:49 PM Rrhain has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 208 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-24-2018 7:16 PM NoNukes has responded
     Message 210 by Modulous, posted 04-24-2018 9:19 PM NoNukes has responded
     Message 212 by Rrhain, posted 04-24-2018 11:16 PM NoNukes has responded

      
    Minnemooseus
    Member
    Posts: 3668
    From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
    Joined: 11-11-2001
    Member Rating: 3.3


    Message 208 of 447 (831798)
    04-24-2018 7:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 207 by NoNukes
    04-24-2018 6:50 PM


    Shooter was Christian home schooled etc
    Replying to the message that is at the current end of the chain.

    Waffle House Shooter’s Mom Claims Lack Of School Prayer Causes Mass Shootings

    quote:
    Bottom line: Waffle House shooter Travis Reinking was raised in a Christian family, was home-schooled, and was given unlimited access to guns.

    And so it goes.


    Moose


    Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
    Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

    "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

    "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

    "Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

    "I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 207 by NoNukes, posted 04-24-2018 6:50 PM NoNukes has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 209 by NoNukes, posted 04-24-2018 9:10 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

        
    NoNukes
    Inactive Member


    (1)
    Message 209 of 447 (831818)
    04-24-2018 9:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 208 by Minnemooseus
    04-24-2018 7:16 PM


    Re: Shooter was Christian home schooled etc
    quote:
    Waffle House Shooter’s Mom Claims Lack Of School Prayer Causes Mass Shootings

    That is the second stupidest thing I have read on EvC today.


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

    We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

    Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

    I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 208 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-24-2018 7:16 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

      
    Modulous
    Member (Idle past 27 days)
    Posts: 7789
    From: Manchester, UK
    Joined: 05-01-2005


    Message 210 of 447 (831821)
    04-24-2018 9:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 207 by NoNukes
    04-24-2018 6:50 PM


    Re: Shooters Get Too Much Media Attention
    1. Unfortuntately, being mentally ill and disturbed is not sufficient legal reason to be denied a gun.

    Depends where you are.

    2. Parents are generally not responsible for their children's crimes, and are certainly not responsible for the crimes of a 29 year old adult even if he is living at home.

    Unless they give knowingly give assistance to their child in the commission of a crime. I'm not saying that is the case here, incidentally.

    4. The police position is that they are unware of any law that Reiinking would have violated by being given his guns back.

    The Tennessee police. Illinois police, I believe, have not commented. It is an offence in Illinois to give weapons to certain individuals, although there are potential loopholes to this. The ATF suggests there may be an Federal offence. But nobody has committed definitively one way or another as far as I can tell.

    Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 207 by NoNukes, posted 04-24-2018 6:50 PM NoNukes has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 211 by NoNukes, posted 04-24-2018 9:40 PM Modulous has responded

      
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