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Author | Topic: Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: I know they are wrong because of all the other evidence of a young earth. There is no evidence for a young earth. None. You have presented none because there is none. ALL the evidence provided by geology, palaeontology, archaeology, radiological dating, dendrology, molecular biology and cosmology - amongst several other disciplines - points to not just an old earth but a VERY old earth. This has been studied extensively, painstakingly and globally for over 200 years by thousands of specialists. It is now a scientific fact that will not change. Had your book of ancient myths never been written this convestation would not be happening. What you mean by all the other evidence is your interpretation of those myths and nothing else.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: You keep saying there is evidence for the very old Earth but the only actual evidence I know of is the radiometric dating system. I suppose you must believe that, but given that you've been presented with all thes multiple sources of independent evidence many hundreds of times it's difficult for me to believe that you actually do. The word delusion isn't strong enough for your sort of illness.
While I've been collecting evidence for the young earth in the fact that there is no disturbance to the strata until after it's all laid down, showing that it was rapidly deposited and not over millions upon millions of years Well you've got me there - can you explain how strata can be disturbed before it's laid down? Or are you making the silly mistake of saying that there is no disturbance in any individual strata or sets of strata? Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: Just describe one please. It perpetual groundhog day here at EVC; like you just arrived today and haven't heard every one of these facts hundreds, if not thousands, of times. The evidential facts hit your wall of disbelief and bounce right off leaving you totally imune to them, so regardless of the evidence you immediately reject, then forget it. Let's ignore all the other evidence from all the other sciences for the moment and just take the direct evidence of radiometric dating. Note that I say 'direct'. It doesn't depend on any 'historic' science, it's experimental and confirmable today. Historically you've run away from this quite obviously because you know it's compelling on its own. But maybe now's the time you put your self-assessed critical thinking skills to the test.
quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Yet Traditional Christianity realized over two hundred years ago that the Earth was not young, that evolution happened, that humans are simply one species of primate, that the Biblical Flood never happened and that the Bible is a creation of man. Traditional Christianity moved on as more was learned and it was only the Christian Cult of Ignorance that remained behind. Sure, Christianity is your flexible friend; it changes what it believes when it can't sustain its myths any longer. And bit by bit they're turning to nice squidgy liberal mush. Thank god.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: Christianity, like all belief systems evolves. Some parts die, some parts change and some parts stay the same. Hilariously a king changed it overnight beacuse the version in force at the time didn't suit him. The fact that it does change tells you a lot about the belief - ie that it's all made up. People notice.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: A great start to a thread. Start it and lets discuss how reality is slightly more complex than you seem to think. I started something very similar a while back EvC Forum: Catholics are making it up.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: The "actual order" has no real order to it at all. just the imposed daydreams of evolutionists. The order in the fossil record can be proved Faith. You can see it yourself. You can study the rocks and fossils either directly or by reading the science. The evidence is so strong that one of the more iconic disproofs of evolution is finding fossils out of order. If the fissils are not ordered you should be able to produce literally thousands out of the claimed order. This is like radiometric dating isn't it Faith. Facts that can't be refuted that prove something that you can't let yourself think about.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: I KNOW THERE IS A PREDICTABLE "ORDER" OF APPEARANCE for crying out loud, but the INTERPRETATION of that accidental order in terms of appearance in different "time periods" over millions of years and evolution from one to the next IS AN ILLUSION. Sheesh. Faith writes: The "actual order" has no real order to it at all. just the imposed daydreams of evolutionists. So where's the problem Faith? Order is very easy to both show or show lacking. All you and your creationist buddies have to do is take the order as presented by science and show it to be wrong. If what you say is true, it should be really, really easy.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: THE PHYSICAL ORDER IS RANDOM, THE INTERPRETATION OF ORDER IN TERMS OF TIME AND RELATEDNESS IS ILLUSORY. WHY ON EARTH IS THERE SUCH A PROBLEM WITH THIS OBVIOUS POINT? I have no problem at all with this obvious point. Science says there is an order in the fossil record, you say it's random. One side is right and the other wrong. This is a matter of fact not argument. In the sequence 123456789 I claim order. I say that order is shown becase each successive number exceeds the last by 1. It is not random. This is random 622498251 You can easily see it's random compared to the previous sequence. So instead of claiming randomness, just prove it. It should be easy. Find the tens of thousands of metaphorical rabbits. Or just a dozen or so. Where's the problem?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: Aw heck, I KNOW there is a "logical" order, at least it seems so to the naked human mind in the absence of any kind of scientific criteria. There's not one iota of empirical evidence for it, it's all a construction of the mind without any correspondence to the actual physical world, and in all this discussion nobody has proposed such a thing, only elaborations on the logic and belief and theory. Here's a very simplified picture of how the scientific criteria has observed and recorded order in the fossil record. All you have to do is find a handful of, well any animal and plant group really, in a different order and you've disproven evolution and great lumps of geology. Can you do that? If there is no order - if it's random - this should be really easy to do.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: But that's kind of silly, Tangle. You almost could replace any of those fossils with any other fossils at any level and you'd still have the same kind of "order." Science disagrees with you so perhaps you're wrong? But just in case thousands of scientists are wrong, why don't you have a go at doing that?
I KNOW there is THAT kind of "order," But you said there was no order, or even order. Order is order Faith - there's no confusion about it. If you say there's no order you also have to say - and demonstrate using the observations available - that order is not present.
What I'm disputing is that that kind of order means anything beyond that, beyond an accidental or random predictable appearance at predictable levels or predictable fossils. I I've read that three times. It contains no meaning. The predictable appearance of fossils in predictable levels of, presumably, geology IS order. You can predict that the appearance of fossils will be random across geological levels - and that would mean no order - but that is observably false.
It looks like it could just because of the Linnaean groupings, but you'd have to show that there is some kind of actuaql functional (not sure that's the best word) relationship between the different levels, something that ties them together beyond their mere location one above another, say increase in complexity or some such. The existance of Linnaean groupings - as you put it - IS the order. If the animals and plants appearing in the geology was not possible to put into groupings - or clades and nested heirarchies - we would see that nad there would be no order. But we see that animals and plants can be grouped and that those groups are not scattered randomly across geology. We NEVER find a mammal (or any other organism) where it couldn't be if there was no order. But as you know that you are right, I'm sure you will be able to do it. Maybe right after you've put us right on radiometric dating. (Which confirms the order independently.)Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: If you can't show any actual relatedness of the fossils in the supposed order, the order remains a mere mental construct and not a physical reality. What on this blessed earth makes you think we can't show relatedness of fossils and order in the fossil record? There's a whole biological discipline devoted to it, it's called palaeontology. The mere fact that I can show you the diagram is the proof of it. Underpinning the diagram is a couple of hundred years of painstaking research which you can read. You can see the fossils and study the science. It's all there for you to prove wrong - in fact. That's fact, not rhetoric and semantics. Tangible fact. You can personally touch these things. You can order them yourself or find no order. Over to you. But you have to either do the work or point us to where the work has been done. You simply saying that there is no order is utterly pointless; not worth the pixels.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: There is static order, like objects arranged in a row according to size, which is the kind the fossil order is. Right so after all that you now say that there IS order. The fossils are not distributed randomly across the geological record. Can you please remember this.
But you think the fossil order implies something dynamic as well, evolution from one form of life to another over time. It does mean that, but for the moment that aspect can be set aside.
There is little argument with the first kind of order; it's clear that fossils are found in a predictable order from layer to layer, Except for you arguing the exact opposite.
using the term "order" in the static sense, although there isn't any obvious characteristic like size that links them, or complexity or whatever you think is implied. There are things that link them. It HAS to be true that the layers on the bottom are older than the layers on the top even if you think that the bottom layer is 1 day older than the flood and the top 365 days. But you have accepted that specific fossils are found only in spevific layers. Regardless of evolution you have no method of sorting those fossils into the 'static' order you now accept. In your 'model, the fossils should either be randomly distributed throughout the geology or the big heavy fossils should be at the bottom of the stack and the small light ones at the top. That's how particles settle in water.
But when it comes to the interpretation of evolution from life form to life form over time that is not proven and nobody here is saying anything that proves it exists at all. Well now you're changing the subject. The fossils are not randomly distributed across the geological record and you have no way of explaining that order. Biology does. It says that the fossils are found in the layers of geology where they lived. Not a surprising or magical idea. Not only that, science has methods of dating those layers and it can show beyond doubt that the layers on the top are younger than the layers on the bottom. Again not a surprising or magical finding. Now if your beliefs were true and this flood of yours scoured the planet of sediment and rock and churned it all up then allowed it to settle again, we'd find rocks of different ages scattered randomly throughout the geological column wouldn't we? Even with vertical separation the same size rock particles in each layer would have different dates. But they don't. Not only are the fossils in a definitive order but so is the geology. Note that you don't have to believe that the dating methods are accurate, just that they have relative consistency. None of that involves showing increasing complexity across the geological record, just that specific groups of fossils are found in specific groups of rocks and that this order is not random or coincidental. Science understands the mechanisms that created this order, your religious beliefs can not. In fact your religious beliefs require a completely different set of findings than the ones we actually observe.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: But that's kind of silly, Tangle. You almost could replace any of those fossils with any other fossils at any level and you'd still have the same kind of "order." To get back to this part of the order issue. You've now accepted that the fossils are in the geological record in a non-random way and that the rocks themselves are non-randomly organised. Science also predicts the order that fossils will appear in the rocks in this non-random way. It say that the oldest will be found in the lowest layers and that single celled organisms will appear first, followed by multi-cellular marine invertebrates, followed by fish, followed by amphibians, followed by reptiles, and then birds and mammals. That's because life evolved in that order. So that's three consistent non-random orders any of which you can disprove by real life observations. So why has this never been disproven?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
God stopped making rocks after the flood apparently.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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