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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1941 of 2887 (831378)
04-16-2018 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1940 by Percy
04-16-2018 2:43 PM


Re: De toit
My conclusions DO rely on evidence. I just don't happen to have the particular evidence of the ice sheet penetration. And at my age I'm not going to become a geologist or even be able to read much of the literature. I think I do very well to keep up as well as I do.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1944 of 2887 (831382)
04-16-2018 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1942 by PaulK
04-16-2018 2:54 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Old style "creationism" was as much a crock as the current paradigm, though even less rationalizable. And it also contradicted the Bible which made it wrong for starters. Darwin had to answer some pretty ridiculous unbiblical AND unscientific explanations for various phenomena, and geology ran into similar irrationalities. So no, there never was a true creationism in either context.
I wish I had the time and the energy to put together all the evidence I've already assembled in one place.
The "fossil order" can't be explained because it's a big fat illusion that there IS any real order to the fossils.
There is a supposed "petrified forest" in the Yellowstone area that looks just like the layers of "forests" in Spirit Lake. I don't know anything about your example except that it sounds like a similar situation as it is described.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1945 of 2887 (831383)
04-16-2018 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1943 by PaulK
04-16-2018 2:57 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
For the umpteen jillionth time, once I've assembled as much evidence as I have against the prevailing paradigm and for the young earth, all I have to do is interpret new examples in accord with what I already know, I don't need to start all over reinventing the wheel.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1948 of 2887 (831386)
04-16-2018 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1946 by PaulK
04-16-2018 3:16 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
But the order of the fossil record is observed fact
You mean that motley collection of fossils found in separate layers that are misinterpreted as some kind of order from primitive to modern but aren't.
I'm sorry I have too many different things on my mind to be expected to remember anything you call "a dramatic example of it" so if you have any interest in real communication, which I'm afraid it's pretty clear you don't, but if you'd at least like to appear as if you do, you'll have to repeat yourself.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1950 of 2887 (831388)
04-16-2018 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1949 by PaulK
04-16-2018 3:36 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
The "actual order" has no real order to it at all. just the imposed daydreams of evolutionists.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1952 of 2887 (831390)
04-16-2018 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1951 by PaulK
04-16-2018 3:49 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
The order of the fossil record is observed fact. It was discovered before the theory of evolution got started, without reference to evolution. Those are the facts.
And it was misinterpreted as having a rational order when it doesn't.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1955 of 2887 (831393)
04-16-2018 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1954 by Tangle
04-16-2018 4:20 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
The order in the fossil record can be proved Faith.
You can see it yourself. You can study the rocks and fossils either directly or by reading the science. The evidence is so strong that one of the more iconic disproofs of evolution is finding fossils out of order.
Oh fer...
I KNOW THERE IS A PREDICTABLE "ORDER" OF APPEARANCE for crying out loud, but the INTERPRETATION of that accidental order in terms of appearance in different "time periods" over millions of years and evolution from one to the next IS AN ILLUSION. Sheesh.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1957 of 2887 (831395)
04-16-2018 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1956 by PaulK
04-16-2018 4:31 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I DON'T KEEP DENYING IT, YOU JUST KEEP MISREADING ME, PROBABLY BECAUSE YOU WANT TO, BECAUSE I AM VERY VERY CLEAR IN MY OWN MIND ABOUT THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE PHYSICAL ORDER/SEQUENCE AND THE INTERPRETATION PASTED OVER IT AND DO MY BEST TO STATE IT CLEARLY.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1959 of 2887 (831397)
04-16-2018 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1958 by Tangle
04-16-2018 4:43 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
THE PHYSICAL ORDER IS RANDOM, THE INTERPRETATION OF ORDER IN TERMS OF TIME AND RELATEDNESS IS ILLUSORY. WHY ON EARTH IS THERE SUCH A PROBLEM WITH THIS OBVIOUS POINT?
If there is no rational order to it at all why do you keep expecting creationists to pretend there is? The best we can do is suppose that there is some unknown principle of physical sorting that accounts for it that may never be known.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1961 of 2887 (831399)
04-16-2018 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1960 by PaulK
04-16-2018 4:57 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
It's only hard to imagine I'm talking about an interpretation because yhou absolutely refuse to read in context of everything I've said about it already. You just love to pretend I keep contradicting myself, when any fair reading would put two and two together and know what I mean. I've ALWAYS been addressing the interpreted order of millions of years of the appearance of different cratures in time. It's just that you don't make the distinction between the accidental sequence of fossils and that interpretive system so you assume I'm not.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1963 of 2887 (831401)
04-16-2018 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1962 by PaulK
04-16-2018 5:07 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
The "coincidence" is an illusion. It's a made-up order that you are mistaking for something rational. It's not. It LOOKS like there is some kind of order to the sequence but there isn't really.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1968 of 2887 (831406)
04-16-2018 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1966 by PaulK
04-16-2018 5:21 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
It would only be a coincidence if there was a principle other than sheer imaginative classification of seeming similarity behind it, but complexity can't be the principle, since "early" fossils are sometimes much more complex than "later" ones. All you have to go on is appearance based on morphology and you impose the idea of genetic relatedness on that. Specific claims of genetic relatedness such as between reptiles and mammals should be recognized to be absurdly impossible because of the sheer numbers of changes that would have to take place all in concert to get a mammal from a reptile, though even getting one plausible stage of change in one organ would be probabilistically impossible. You'd need a billion billion years for such changes to occur and even that wouldn't be enough, not to mention that there are thousands of transitionals needed between any two Species to even begin to make an argument, and you have what, half a dozen between different Species at best? The "fossil order" is nothing but a testimony to the ability of human imagination to invent patterns that have no real meaning in reality.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1970 of 2887 (831408)
04-16-2018 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1969 by Coragyps
04-16-2018 6:11 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Sure, you want to get from the reptile ear to the mammal ear? Without even bothering with all the other changes in other body parts that would have to happen simultaneously? (But don't forget about that). There are many differences between the two ear structures, including needing an extra chamber by the time you finish, and completely repositioning all the parts in relation to each other, changing their relative sizes and so on and so forth. How are you even going to be sure of getting one increment of change in only one part that's the right place to begin the transition? Why wouldn't you get dozens of mistakes in size or direction or any other physical feature from generation to generation before you get even close to where you want to go? I'd have to pull up the images from the former thread on the subject to be more specific, but I'm sure you can follow the logic anyway. Do you want to get a human from something ape like? You have to change skull size and relation to spine, length of arms, shape of hands and fingers, position of facial features, etc etc etc and you have to have all these changes occurring at once. The only possible reason you could think any of this possible is that you see differences from generation to generation on the level of microevolution that are all built into the genome, but we're talking structural changes here which are on an entirely different level. You all don't even recogtnize changes built into the genome so you actually think such impossible transitions are possible. What an illusion.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1972 of 2887 (831410)
04-16-2018 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1971 by JonF
04-16-2018 7:16 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Back to the usual semantic obfuscation. The order is only SEEMING order.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1981 of 2887 (831420)
04-17-2018 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1977 by edge
04-16-2018 11:23 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Just trying to get you to SEE that there is a logical order.
Aw heck, I KNOW there is a "logical" order, at least it seems so to the naked human mind in the absence of any kind of scientific criteria. There's not one iota of empirical evidence for it, it's all a construction of the mind without any correspondence to the actual physical world, and in all this discussion nobody has proposed such a thing, only elaborations on the logic and belief and theory. Which seems to be what Moose is engaged in as well -- but I haven't read through his whole post yet. Nobody is trying to show any kind of actual gradation from one level to the next to justify the idea of its being an order, not even a principle one could try to apply to it, not increasing complexity, not actual genetic relatedness, nothing you could actually prove by scientific means, it's all imagery, no reality.

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