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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1902 of 2887 (831303)
04-14-2018 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1899 by Faith
04-14-2018 10:38 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Ah well, so much for fair and honest debate. Nothing you said here makes any more sense than what I was already dealing with.
No one said that every formation is local.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1899 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 10:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 1904 of 2887 (831305)
04-14-2018 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1900 by Faith
04-14-2018 10:53 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I see. And do the Saharan erg, the Brazilian shield, and the Florida/Bahamian Banks lie over respective stacks of similarly extensive flat straight sedimentary layers identifiable with earlier Time Periods as all the layers/Systems of the currently identifiable Geological column do, and if not, why should anyone consider them to have anything to do with the Geological Column and its corresponding Geological Timescale at all, rather than just sand and swampy stuff that could turn to coal and whatever calcareous stuff could possibly turn into limestone, but who knows if any of it really will? If you're going to assert that any of this is related to the Geological Column shouldn't there be more similarity with the Geological Column, in form and location?
Why should they overly anything in particular?
Please provide your definition of stratum where it must overlie other strata.
And as I said, if they are subject to subsidence and cover by seawater. There are no guarantees of preservation. You asked where this kind of deposition is going on, so I told you.
Why would they not become part of the stratigraphic column if they were buried under future sediments?
So for hundreds of millions of years we got one rock System on top of another spanning most of North America, and now we're getting no more and we're supposed to believe that the Geological Column just abasndoned North America after all that time?
This is gibberish.
First of all, we are getting deposition right now, and who believes that the the geological columh could just 'abandon' anything?
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix a quote box.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1900 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 10:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 2045 by Percy, posted 04-20-2018 6:09 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1905 of 2887 (831306)
04-14-2018 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1901 by Faith
04-14-2018 11:00 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Or how they look when you understand them as the wrong interpretations of the obsolete false paradigm that needs to be overturned.
I'm sorry, but mostly, they do make sense to me.
Your argument is just another strawman.

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 Message 1901 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 11:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1906 of 2887 (831307)
04-14-2018 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1903 by Faith
04-14-2018 11:10 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I'm thinking of the maps that show continuous deposition of layers or Systems or even the six "transgressions" (Sauk to Zuni) as blocks, spanning most of the continent with no breaks clearly identifiable with obstacles.
But they don't. Your thinking is inaccurate.
I have just shown you why.
What your diagram depicts is what happened after all the strata had been in place for some time and for originally higher layers to have eroded away (at the end of the Flood), and long enough for the salt layer to sink. In other words that sink wasn't there when the formation was originally deposited so it couldn't have been an obstacle to its extensive straight flat form.
Nonsense. It shows the development of a land mass to the east of the Colorado Plateau during Pennsylvanian time. The Paradox formation was not deposited there, and we see evidence of an eroding landmass in the gravel deposits along the Uncompahgre Uplift.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1903 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 11:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1912 of 2887 (831318)
04-15-2018 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1911 by Faith
04-15-2018 5:11 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
What does the upper horizontal line represent?
Sea level (at the time). The Ancestral Rockies are rising to the right of the diagram.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1911 by Faith, posted 04-15-2018 5:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1921 by Faith, posted 04-15-2018 10:25 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 1919 of 2887 (831345)
04-15-2018 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1914 by Faith
04-15-2018 4:08 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Strata and fossils, strata and fossils, strata and fossils.
Yes. The point being?
Strata miles deep with no erosion between layers, ...
Except when there is erosion between the layers.
And the fact that erosion was occurring elsewhere from the Colorado Plateau.
... no deformation by tectonism, ...
Except when there was tectonism outside of the Colorado Plateau.
... no magma that begins or ends except at the very bottom and the very top.
Ah, so you admit that there were more than one magmatic event?
And you also omit the fact the there was magmatism elsewhere while the alleged 'flood rocks' were being deposited, such as the Deccan Traps.
Got anything else to be wrong on?

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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1922 of 2887 (831348)
04-15-2018 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1921 by Faith
04-15-2018 10:25 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
And at this time (now), what does it represent?
Okay, just remember that you asked.
That line is a chronostratigraphic horizon at the top of the Desmoinesian Stage (North American) of the Pennsylvanian sub-System on the eastern side of the Colorado Plateau.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1921 by Faith, posted 04-15-2018 10:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1924 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 12:00 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1975 of 2887 (831414)
04-16-2018 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1923 by Faith
04-15-2018 11:59 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
The thing is, there isn't anything in that diagram to suggest when it occurred,
Sure there is. The rocks being deposited are of the same age as some of those in the Grand Canyon, this case the Supai Group. They are being deposited in response to the uplift of the Ancestral Rocky Mountains.
... and since I've seen so much evidence that serious disturbances did not happen until the entire geological column was laid down from Cambrian to Holocene, I have no doubt that what is shown in that diagram also happened after it was all in place.
Actually, you have seen no such thing. You have see the stratigraphy of the Grand Canyon and nowhere else.
But feel free to continue your denial.

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 Message 1923 by Faith, posted 04-15-2018 11:59 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1976 of 2887 (831415)
04-16-2018 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1924 by Faith
04-16-2018 12:00 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I don't suppose you could translate that into simple English?
It's not a simple topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1924 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 12:00 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2030 by Faith, posted 04-18-2018 2:35 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1977 of 2887 (831416)
04-16-2018 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1959 by Faith
04-16-2018 4:45 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
THE PHYSICAL ORDER IS RANDOM, THE INTERPRETATION OF ORDER IN TERMS OF TIME AND RELATEDNESS IS ILLUSORY. WHY ON EARTH IS THERE SUCH A PROBLEM WITH THIS OBVIOUS POINT?
Because it's not obvious?
Tell me, have you always been this disagreeable, or did it take practice/
If there is no rational order to it at all why do you keep expecting creationists to pretend there is?
"If"???
Just trying to get you to SEE that there is a logical order.
The best we can do is suppose that there is some unknown principle of physical sorting that accounts for it that may never be known.
So, you are basing your point on ignorance, something you don't know?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1959 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 4:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1981 by Faith, posted 04-17-2018 1:06 AM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 2042 of 2887 (831522)
04-19-2018 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 2039 by Percy
04-19-2018 1:04 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I don't know why Edge didn't comment on your use of the term "band of layers." I'm not sure what you mean by it, and I don't see how Edge could know, either. For that reason I could be incorrect about what Edge is saying "no" to.
Bands and layers are not specific terms. When they are used they should be used only in a very site-specific situation. Saying "these layers" should refer to a definite location or picture. In a scientific sense, they are not even pertinent to this discussion.
Other terms have very specific meanings, such as 'Period' or 'Stage', or 'formation', etc. Even the word 'continent' has a specific meaning, pretty much confined continental crust.
The problem is that a given rock unit is typically time-transgressive ... some parts are younger than others. This is the case with the Tapeats for instance which shows evolution of trilobites during its time span of deposition. In this case it probably took on the order of millions of years for the Tapeats to transgress from the edge of the continent to the center.
Because of this, time and rock are separate as Pressie has stated here several times. Rock (meaning 'strata') and time are not equivalent. I'm not sure how to explain it.
This causes all kinds of problems for cognition. However, when the light finally comes on for students, it all starts to make sense. This is why Walther's Law is so important. It explains the sequence. It explains the source of sediments. And, it even explains the 'flat and straight contacts' that Faith is so fond of.
Ask me about details and I can try to answer. I'll look at the rest of your post in a while.
____________________________________________________________
One of the major misunderstandings here is the concept of time. I've been wanting to post this but my connections have been pretty bad lately. Anyway, we have to remember that, in Faith's world, there is no time.
Consequently, there is no order to the fossils. All rocks and fossils were deposited in one year, so they are ALL OF THE SAME AGE!!!
And, obviously, processes cannot occur without time. That is why Faith needs only one period of tectonism, one period of erosion, and one ice age, etc.
So, in a way, it all makes sense. Only to her of course, and one must ignore a lot of evidence. But it is seductively simple.
This is patently silly, but I believe it is how Faith thinks (I'm sure she will correct me shortly). So, discussion of processes and fossil orders are completely meaningless since fossils just formed where they dropped. It is how people thought in the 18th century. YEC just hasn't come that far in the last 200 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2039 by Percy, posted 04-19-2018 1:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2044 by Faith, posted 04-20-2018 5:41 PM edge has replied
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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 2043 of 2887 (831523)
04-19-2018 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 2038 by Phat
04-19-2018 11:43 AM


Re: Kudzu
Very nice. In the Orinoco jungle I saw villages covered in similar weeds. Kinda spooky, actually.

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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 2054 of 2887 (831568)
04-20-2018 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 2045 by Percy
04-20-2018 6:09 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
The last sentence quoted above, taken in isolation, might give Faith the false impression that, for example, the Saharan erg does not overlie existing strata, which she would cite in support of her mistaken idea that sediments being deposited today have nothing to do with strata deposited in the past (by the Flood, in her view). Here's a diagram I found of the strata underlying a part of the Sahara in Egypt:
Sure. However, there are many exceptions, such as when a stratum overlies an igneous batholith. In fact, I'm pretty sure that it happens in a lot of places, including the Sahara, though I've not checked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2045 by Percy, posted 04-20-2018 6:09 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 2055 of 2887 (831569)
04-20-2018 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2046 by jar
04-20-2018 6:13 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Your chart is yet another great example showing that particular rock layers often extend across several time periods and that there is a whole variety of rock types within any given time period.
Good point. I'm pretty sure that Faith can handwave that away by saying that those aren't 'strata' (sensu faitho).

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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 2056 of 2887 (831570)
04-20-2018 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2044 by Faith
04-20-2018 5:41 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
All I've ever meant is that a time period, say the Cambrian, encompasses the rock, and vice versa, in this case called the Tapeats, and nothing you've said changes that.
In that case you are wrong. The Cambrian System includes the Tapeats, but the age of the Tapeats only goes from the lower Cambrian to the middle Cambrian.
The entire Tonto Group was laid down before the end of the Cambrian.
The problem is that Tapeats is not being deposited all over the world.
Since terminology matters so much and the most recent pages of this discussion have been a ridiculous mess of semantic confusion, there's no point in beating my head against this wall any more. I don't need to talk to Geologists, I can go talk to ordinary people.
And you are welcome to do so. No one forces you to be here. I don't suppose that you entertain the concept that the problem just might be yours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2044 by Faith, posted 04-20-2018 5:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2057 by Faith, posted 04-20-2018 11:29 PM edge has not replied
 Message 2058 by NosyNed, posted 04-21-2018 12:25 AM edge has replied

  
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