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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 157 of 882 (832858)
05-13-2018 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by GDR
05-13-2018 2:23 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
When the Biblical writers use the term "Word of God" it is not referring to the Scriptures. It is referring to the Logos and can be also translated as the "wisdom" of God. In Genesis it metaphorically talks about God speaking the world into existence, (such as in God said let there be light etc. ) and so it is in reference to that. The "Word of God" put another way is the essence, the wisdom and the power of God when used in the Bible.
Traditional Bible theologians say you're wrong. They agree with that quote I gave that "All scripture is God-breathed." I think I'll go with them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 2:23 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 158 of 882 (832859)
05-13-2018 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by PaulK
05-13-2018 4:15 AM


Theopneustos
Why then should we read breathed as referring to authorship rather than to a more common meaning of inspired as the word is normally used ?
Because "God-brfeathed" is what it means in the original Greek.
theopneustos: God-breathed, i.e. inspired by God
Original Word: ,
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: theopneustos
Phonetic Spelling: (theh-op'-nyoo-stos)
Short Definition: God-breathed, inspired by God
Definition: God-breathed, inspired by God, due to the inspiration of God.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2018 4:15 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 160 of 882 (832861)
05-13-2018 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by PaulK
05-13-2018 5:29 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Of course. It is the meaning understood by all traditional Bible exegetes. But since you are among those so far above the traditionalists of course you must be right. You can argue it with God when the time comes.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 162 of 882 (832863)
05-13-2018 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by PaulK
05-13-2018 5:57 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Traditional means the line through the Reformation to the present. Standard garden-variety evangelicals. But we know they don't count because PaulK is the expert on all of it and he disagrees with them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 167 of 882 (832869)
05-13-2018 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Tangle
05-13-2018 8:15 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
GDR says public stonings are evil, therefore God did not advocate them.*
GDR complains that the death penalty is executed out of public sight.
I suggested that perhaps we should bring back public stonings.
*I rewrote this because I'd first said GDR said God is evil for advocating public stonings, but he didn't, he simply said the Bible writers were lying because God wouldn't do that.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 171 of 882 (832874)
05-13-2018 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by GDR
05-13-2018 9:53 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Augusting said something for everybody. Luther got a lot out of Augustine.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 175 of 882 (832879)
05-13-2018 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Phat
05-13-2018 10:12 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Lets take a group of people who believe that the Bible is one of Gods ways to speak to us.
Do they follow their conscience when it disagrees with the strict literal interpretation of the Bible or do they go with the literal interpretation?
When you pray for wisdom or inspiration, do you ask for this wisdom to build on what the Bible says or do you ask for an overall understanding of what the book (or God Himself) says to us now...today...in the current context?
The Bible is our final authority. Without that we are subject to all kinds of errors and deceptions through our own feelings and judgments or even through demonic influence. Whenever a person "gets a message from God" we know it's not from God if it contradicts scripture. Those who pick and choose from the Bible to decide for themselves what is true in it and what false, are seriously self-deceived.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 176 of 882 (832880)
05-13-2018 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by GDR
05-13-2018 10:29 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Picking up firewood on the Sabbath was a horrifically serious sin against God and against the Jewish community and against the promise of the Messiah. Doing any kind of work on the Sabbath, or doing anything like collecting firewood which was necessary for the work of cooking, was a slap in the face of God. The sanctity of the Sabbath as a day of Rest foreshadows the ultimate Rest in Christ promised from Eden. That Rest speaks of total and complete dependence on God rather than ourselves. To call it a minor crime is to misunderstand the most central objective of God's revelation to us.
Yes of course I understood your culturebound and prissily self-righteous denunciation of public stoning as punishment of lawbreakers as well as your fatuously self-deceived idea of who Jesus Christ is. That only makes my joke more of a joke.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 181 of 882 (832886)
05-13-2018 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by GDR
05-13-2018 11:28 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
It's very sad to see someone judge the Bible by his own fallible mind, and turn it against God and against people who know what it really means. You turn it against me and you will even turn this against me won't you? I can point to what the Bible says and you will just say it doesn't mean what it says, God didn't advocate stoning lawbreakers, God didn't order the death of a whole lawbreaking people, that's the men who wrote it lying about it. You'll even quote the Bible against me for believing the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 11:28 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 5:07 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 182 of 882 (832887)
05-13-2018 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by PaulK
05-13-2018 1:51 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
If the Bible is your final authority, why do you quote men who misrepresent it ?
Message 146
I note that you haven’t answered this point.
What's to answer? I quoted someone who gives the standard traditional understanding. That doesn't matter to you. You like your own interpretations better.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 190 of 882 (832896)
05-13-2018 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by GDR
05-13-2018 5:07 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
I'm not saying my mind is infallible, I'm saying that's why God gave us the Bible, BECAUSE we can't trust ourselves to get it right. I trust the Bible, you trust your own fallible mind.
Yes I do -- in a general sense -- know what it really means, as do evangelicals in general -- because I spent a lot of time, a LOT of time, since becoming a believer, studying theology, Bible exegesis, and listening to preachers galore, mostly traditional but I also read a lot of heretical and cultic and fringey stuff.
I read the Bible according to context and I often consider what lots of preachers and teachers have to say about it before I feel I know what it means. Of course Jesus didn't tell all of us to give away all we own, He told a specific person that and anybody else whose situation it fits, but of course it is a general principle we are to take seriously according to our own situations too..
The stubborn and rebellious son is considered to be an adult, not a child. God also held the priest Eli responsible for the misbehavior of his adult sons.
And while the Old Testament is to be a model for all times it also has to be understood as particularly related to the context of God's chosen people who needed very strict laws to protect them against the influences of the idolatrous nations around them. The death penalty was one form of protection against all kinds of misbehaviors that could cause the people to degenerate -- which is given as the reason for the punishment of the rebellious son. The people degenerated anyway because they didn't obey God's law and did fall into the heathen practices. We live in the Christian era and there is no nation that is God's chosen people so laws are made with different purposes in mind.
The Bible is not directed to the reader, it's meant to be read in context and applied according to relevance.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 5:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 192 of 882 (832898)
05-13-2018 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by GDR
05-13-2018 6:47 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
I obey the Bible and not my own opinion about what laws are still in force and which are not. The New Testament makes all that clear.
And Jesus does NOT "correct" the law of eye for an eye and tooth for tooth, because that law is absolutely perfectly expressed Justice. He is instead teaching us individually and personally to learn not to exact justice but to be merciful and self-sacrificing for the sake of saving others.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 193 of 882 (832899)
05-13-2018 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by GDR
05-13-2018 6:47 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
You pick and choose according to what you believe.
How would I know what to believe if I hadn't read what I've read? And actually I don't pick and choose according to what I believe, I often understand that things I don't agree with are nevertheless true so I subordinate my own opinion to them. The teachings on women's role for instance.
There are numerous laws about the sacrifice of animals in the OT but Jesus said that He desires mercy and not sacrifice.
Actually it was God in the Old Testament who said that. But Jesus IS the fulfillment of all the animal sacrifices so they are now obsolete. The Letter to the Hebrews is all about that. There are no more animal sacrifices because THE sacfirice they all pointed to has come. That's why God had the temple destroyed, the only place ordained for the performance of the animal sacrifices. The food laws are also obsolete because they were meant to keep the Israelites from contamination by the idolatrous nations. Peter's vision tells us they are now obsolute.
He corrects the law that Moses, (not Yahweh) gave on divorce.
Yes He did correct it. Now it is as strict as God intended it to be and the excuses given by the men of Israel are no longer allowed.
He corrects the law concerning an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and says instead to turn the other cheek.
This applies on the personal level, but the Law of eye for an eye remains perfect Justice to be applied by the State.
You pick and choose and rationalize away all that does not fit your understanding of how the Bible is to be understood.
As I said, the New Testament teaches us what applies now and what doesn't. Jesus fulfilled the Law on the behalf of all individual believers. We are no longer under its condemnation because He fulfilled it for us. But Paul taught that the Law is holy in itself, and Jesus said not one tiny point of punctuation will go unfulfilled because He came to pay it all to save us from eternal punishment. But in this fallen world law is necessary or things would be even worlse than they are, and they are pretty bad these days because we've been abandoning a lot of God's law.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 194 of 882 (832900)
05-13-2018 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by GDR
05-13-2018 6:47 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Do you think that I haven't? I have shelves full of theological books that I have read. I am currently reading a book of over 1600 pages all on Paul. I too have read authors with various view points including those who think like you do.
OK, I believe you but then it's hard for me to understand HOW you are reading it because you seem to end up judging it all from some ingrained moral feelings of your own and denying the validity of what to my mind are the most believable positions. You seem to judge from your emotions rather than according to what is true. Objectivity is missing. Objectivity is practically defined by the suspension of one's own opinions and feelings and judging according to an external standard.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 6:47 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 213 by GDR, posted 05-14-2018 2:17 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 196 of 882 (832902)
05-13-2018 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by jar
05-13-2018 8:11 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
What is actually written is what I follow. You on the other hand don't.
You follow a cult. I don't.
The Bible was directly and personally inspired by God, meaning the men who wrote it were guided by God.
The Bible is a compilation of Spirit-inspired writings by God's own chosen prophets and apostles.
The real question is how you got so misguided.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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