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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 201 of 882 (832920)
05-14-2018 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by NoNukes
05-14-2018 9:23 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
What is actually written, read correctly the way it is supposed to be read, is what the traditional interpretation reads.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by NoNukes, posted 05-14-2018 9:23 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 205 of 882 (832932)
05-14-2018 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by NoNukes
05-14-2018 10:57 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Funny, I've said that to you many times, how you are the least logical person here. Is tit for tatting me that satisfying to you?
Those "old dudes" are all the big thinkers of the Christian tradition, plus many in today's Reformed circles, but here I'm up against the most amazing collection of "liberal Christians" I've ever seen assembled in one supposedly neutral place. I've presented my views many many times and there's no way anybody here is going to accept them because it's all against your own liberal views, so there's no point in pursuing it any further. I continue to be astonished but oh well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by NoNukes, posted 05-14-2018 10:57 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2018 1:33 PM Faith has replied
 Message 215 by NoNukes, posted 05-14-2018 7:23 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 208 of 882 (832936)
05-14-2018 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by PaulK
05-14-2018 1:33 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
It must be nice to be one of the majority and always have someone who will back you up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2018 1:33 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2018 1:50 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 211 of 882 (832939)
05-14-2018 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by PaulK
05-14-2018 1:50 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
If I’m part of the majority it’s probably because I have truth and reason on my side
Of course, what else could it possibly be?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2018 1:50 PM PaulK has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 214 of 882 (832946)
05-14-2018 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by GDR
05-14-2018 2:17 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
It's probably a mistake to enter into debate about the Bible and God at all, but it's hard to avoid here.
In order to understand the New Testament you need the Old Testament. In order to understand what God has to say in the Old Testament, you need to look at it through the lens of the New Testament, and particularly the teaching of Jesus.
Well, I agree with half of that: the New Testament is necessary to understand the Old, but not the other way around. The whole point of the Old Testament was to point to the Messiah Jesus, as Jesus Himself said.
Here is an example of understanding the new from the old. In Acts 1 it tells us that He (Jesus) was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. Now with our 21st century way of reading this we see him disappearing into an actual cloud. However when we go to the OT we can see stories as in Exodus with God leading the Israelites in a pillar of cloud. Even more clearly we read again in Exodus the following 2 quotes.
While Aaron was speaking to the whole Israelite community, they looked toward the desert, and there was the glory of the LORD appearing in the cloud.
The LORD said to Moses, I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you. Then Moses told the LORD what the people had said.
So now when we go back to the ascension we can see that it isn’t about Jesus going into a cloud but it is Jesus going into the presence of God.
I don't see that from what you've quoted. It appears to be a literal cloud in all cases, and even if the OT clouds weren't really clouds, whatever you mean by that, there's no reason I see that the OT should be used to define the cloud Jesus disappeared into. Of course He went to the presence of God but it was a literal cloud He disappeared into. Why not? Even if it was a specially divinely devised cloud it was still a cloud, and when He returns we should expect to see Him coming out of what anyone would describe as an actual cloud. As the angel told the disciples who were standing there with mouths agape after Jesus had been taken up into the cloud, He will come again just as He left.
(However, if you have to have a symbolic "cloud," the usual meaning of cloud is that it represents a very large company of people, as in "a cloud of witnesses" etc.
Now when I want to understand things like the claim that Yahweh had commanded genocide and public stoning I can look at it through the lens Jesus and the NT. We are to understand that people are capable of claiming vile things in the name of God to suit their own purposes. That tells us that we should be wary when people make those claims and keep our eyes focused on the true representative of God which is Jesus and not an inerrant Bible.
Seems to me you need some reason to accuse the writers of that kind of deception and you have none. But beyond that you are simply wrong about Jesus. He IS God, He is the second Person of the one true God, three Persons all with the same mind. And it would be very odd if the omnipotent God couldn't guarantee that His chosen writers would give a true revelation of His nature. That sort of confusion is impossible if God is God.
The Word or nature that we see in Jesus with the message to love our enemy tells us that Yahweh would never have sanctioned, let alone commanded, either public stoning or genocide. It is clear in the Gospels that Jesus saw the enemy as evil itself and that the weapon against such evil, (in this case the Romans), was love. He told His followers to love them, turn the other cheek and go the extra mile. He commanded His followers to infect, not just their fellow Jews, but the whole world with God’s love by allowing the love that He has for us, to flow through us, into the world.
Well, nothing I say is likely to change your mind, but Jesus IS the God who decreed the punishments described in the Old Testament. He clearly identifies Himself many times with God. Same God, same mind. I already pointed out that the Messiah is to come a second time to bring vengeance on God's enemies. However, you are making a very basic mistake. The Old Testament Laws are for a nation, a whole community, a government, but Jesus is talking to His individual disciples. We personally are to love our enemies and all the rest of it. And although Jesus' merciful principles should also be taken to heart by the State, the State has the job of punishing people who are a danger to society. But we as individuals are to give up all motives of revenge "Vengeance is Mine, says the LORD." Not ours, His. The severe punishments described and prescribed in the OT are also to be taken as pictures of eternal punishment for those who will not repent. Mercy is ultimately salvation through Christ's sacrifice and that entails repentance. The unrepentant remain under God's wrath, which is said in the New Testament too. ALL of us, it says, were under God's wrath until saved.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by NoNukes, posted 05-15-2018 4:41 AM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 217 of 882 (832964)
05-15-2018 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by NoNukes
05-15-2018 4:41 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
NN writes:
Faith writes:
However, if you have to have a symbolic "cloud," the usual {symbolic} meaning of cloud is that it represents a very large company of people, as in "a cloud of witnesses" etc.
Really? Can you cite a couple of what must be many examples of this word usage?
Or are you just saying whatever?
Isa 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
Eze 38:9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us...
[Strong's] The KJV translates Strong's G3509 in the following manner: cloud (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng
Read somewhere while looking this up yesterday that both Greek and Latin as well as Hebrew, use "cloud" in this way, but can't find it today so you can accuse me of making that part up.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by NoNukes, posted 05-15-2018 4:41 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 221 of 882 (833026)
05-16-2018 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Aussie
05-16-2018 8:48 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
That's true but I'm also sure it can be reconciled, and I'm also not interested enough to find out how.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 223 of 882 (833030)
05-16-2018 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Aussie
05-16-2018 10:24 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
It should only take a few in any case, but I can show you hundreds nevertheless. Once it is clear there is only one God, and yet the Father is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, and the Son is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, and the Holy Spirit is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, that's the Trinity.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 234 by Aussie, posted 05-16-2018 12:32 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 235 of 882 (833056)
05-16-2018 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Aussie
05-16-2018 12:32 PM


Biblical proofs of the Trinity
Aussie writes:
Faith writes:
t should only take a few in any case, but I can show you hundreds nevertheless. Once it is clear there is only one God, and yet the Father is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, and the Son is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, and the Holy Spirit is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, that's the Trinity.
Faith, for goodness sake. We all know this isn't true! You cannot show hundreds of clear verses demonstrating the Trinity! It's not true! We all know you are being dishonest! Please stop. There are a few scattered verses in the NT mentioning a few variations on God, but just a few, and we all know you are not being honest here.
God never told Moses, "The LORD thy God is Three-in-One Lords," and I'm finding it hilariously ironic in this thread that Moses himself would have stoned you in public for believing in a Trinity.
The following article claims to refer to about 700 biblical texts as in some way supporting the doctrine of the Trinity. I've presented it here before at least once. You may not find many of the texts convincing, but as he says, you do have to read the Bible correctly to understand such things.
(And by the way I've heard a good sermon on the subject of the Deity of Jesus Christ that claims there is proof of it on just about every page of the Bible, and in a great many quotes from Jesus Himself as well, if you are reading correctly. I can't produce the evidence of that right now though I certainly wish I could. I'm not even sure I could find the sermon that presented that claim. too bad I'm so lousy at keeping track of things.)
Robert Bowman, The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity
His outline and intro:
There Is One God
This God is Known In The OT As Jehovah/Yahweh ("The Lord")
God Is A Unique, Incomprehensible Being
Is God One Person?
The Father Of Jesus Christ Is God
Jesus Christ Is God
The Holy Spirit Is God
The Father, Son, And Holy Spirit Are Distinct Persons
Conclusion
What Difference Does The Doctrine Of The Trinity Make?
The following outline study presents an overview of the biblical basis of the doctrine of the Trinity. Comments on the texts have been kept to a bare minimum; the emphasis is on the many biblical texts themselves (about 700 references are listed, including references from 26 of the 27 books of the New Testament).
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Aussie, posted 05-16-2018 12:32 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 248 by Aussie, posted 05-16-2018 4:37 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 237 of 882 (833064)
05-16-2018 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by PaulK
05-16-2018 2:14 PM


Re: Biblical proofs of the Trinity
I said there are hundreds of references that demonstrate the Trinity, I didn't say or imply that there are any direct statements directly declaring that God is three in one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2018 2:14 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2018 2:57 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 239 of 882 (833068)
05-16-2018 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by PaulK
05-16-2018 2:57 PM


Re: Biblical proofs of the Trinity
I'm sorry, I thought it was clear I meant that TOGETHER they clearly define One God in Three Persons, but obviously not. Sorry, I will try to be more precise, but since I can never anticipate how I'm going to be misread I probably won't be able to pre-empt the usual misreadings.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2018 2:57 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2018 3:20 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 241 of 882 (833073)
05-16-2018 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by PaulK
05-16-2018 3:20 PM


Re: Biblical proofs of the Trinity
There is nothing vague about the main references as listed on the outline I quoted. Each refers to one essential aspect of the Trinity and all work together to demonstrate the doctrine as a whole quite clearly. Or maybe I shouldn't say "all," but I know many of them do. I haven't looked up all of them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 240 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2018 3:20 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2018 3:45 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 243 of 882 (833078)
05-16-2018 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by PaulK
05-16-2018 3:45 PM


Re: Biblical proofs of the Trinity
Read all in context it is quite clear that Jesus is God as well as a separate Person as are Father and Holy Spirit as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2018 3:45 PM PaulK has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 250 of 882 (833089)
05-16-2018 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Aussie
05-16-2018 4:37 PM


Re: Biblical proofs of the Trinity
I never learn that no matter how good my evidence is it will never be good enough for EvC.
But I would like to end my role in this discussion with a very rare thank-you from one of my most steadfast opponents here, Dr Adequate, who years ago actually appreciated the reference to the Trinity presentation I've posted here. The url has changed since then but it was the same presentation:
This is from Message 28, Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?:
Dr A writes:
Faith writes:
The Trinity is not specifically named in the Bible but it is implicit in a huge array of scriptural references that together add up to the concept of One God in Three Persons. Here is An Outline Study of the relevant scriptures.
Thank you, that guy does a good job. I like the way the Bible verses pop up too, that's a neat way of doing it.
I do think that occasionally he's reaching; however most of it is convincing.
Of course I remembered this very very rare occasion when an opponent here actually appreciated something I posted. By now he may have changed his mind of course, but at the time it was thrilling to get such appreciation from such a stalwart enemy.
Which I offer because MAYBE it might show some here that it isn't necessary to fight everything I say tooth and nail.
Or not.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 283 of 882 (833342)
05-20-2018 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by jar
05-20-2018 7:02 AM


Re: Moral problems of Christianity today.
Once again, it is the people that do not use the tool provided that creates the problem. Christianity in general has not acknowledge and bewailed its manifold sins and wickedness, made an effort of recompense, made an effort to not commit the same sins and wickedness in the future.
This is quite true of Roman Catholicism. Pope John Paul made a pathetically inadequate "apology" for the Inquisition some years ago that blamed it on ordinary Catholics when in fact it was engineered by the papacy itself. The Office of The Inquisition still exists, has never been repudiated by the Roman church, and the anathemas against Protestantism by the Council of Trent also still stand, curses against the Reformation doctrines of sola scriptura, sola fide, sola Christus and so on that are the backbone of true Christianity.
Though Catholics are now allowed to read the Bible, at least in western countries (Catholics in Catholic countries are still as illiterate and superstitious and misguided as ever, and persecution of Protestants still happens in those countries) but it's just an expedient political move to cover up their real objective of world domination, which they had had in Europe and lost at the Reformation. They're supposed to read only the Catholic version of course, which has been revised to accommodate the worship of icons which is otherwise forbidden in the first tablet of the Ten Commandments.
abe: Just remembered there was a similar sort of inadequate "apology" made for the incitement of the murders in Rwanda by a Catholic priest over the radio. /abe
abe: About the Inquisition, when Garibaldi conquered Rome in 1848, long after the Inquisition had supposedly stopped, he found dungeons for torture of "heretics" in the Vatican still being used: Reference: So you think the Roman inquisition ended? /abe
The Lutheran Church did sincerely apologize for Luther's anti-Semitic outburst, however. Otherwise I don't know of any church-authorized "wickedness" on the Protestant side. Unless the condemnation of interracial marriages in the south was church-authorized. It would have been local in that case however.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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