Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 90 (8876 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-14-2018 11:33 AM
139 online now:
Aussie, frako, JonF, kjsimons, ooh-child, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat), ringo, Tangle, Taq, vimesey (11 members, 128 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Bill Holbert
Post Volume:
Total: 844,066 Year: 18,889/29,783 Month: 834/2,043 Week: 386/386 Day: 43/107 Hour: 8/11


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
456Next
Author Topic:   The roots of Creation Science and Darwinism
Modulous
Member (Idle past 83 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 31 of 89 (833143)
05-17-2018 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Astronomy
05-17-2018 3:02 PM


The Law am=F holds for situations of low velocity in 2018, if in such and similar situations in 2019 would start to hold am=F+0.001 instead, then the law is definitely changed.

OK. And how does this advance your argument?

If body follows in 2018 the law am=F, and in 2019 it does not follow the law am=F, then the law am=F is violated.

Yes, OK. How does this advance your argument?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Astronomy, posted 05-17-2018 3:02 PM Astronomy has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6126
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 89 (833144)
05-17-2018 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Modulous
05-16-2018 12:21 PM


Re-Dark Matter
Hi Mod

Mod writes:

I see no evidence that Dark Matter does not have a natural source. Do you have something beyond your assertion on this?

Do you have any evidence that Dark Matter even exists?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Modulous, posted 05-16-2018 12:21 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Modulous, posted 05-17-2018 7:24 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6126
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.1


(2)
Message 33 of 89 (833145)
05-17-2018 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by NoNukes
05-15-2018 9:38 PM


Re: Wow.
Hi NoNukes

NoNukes writes:

ICANT, could you field this one?

I got lost at 'However'.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NoNukes, posted 05-15-2018 9:38 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 83 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(3)
Message 34 of 89 (833150)
05-17-2018 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ICANT
05-17-2018 5:04 PM


Re: Re-Dark Matter
Do you have any evidence that Dark Matter even exists?

1) The rotation of stars in galaxies. Based purely on the amount of luminous matter - they should be rotating slower on the edges than in the middle if our understanding of orbital physics is accurate. We're pretty confident in that understanding. They aren't rotating this way and this is best explained by something exerting a gravitational influence that does not give off light.

2) Galaxy clusters. We can observe the relative motion of galaxies that exist in clusters and this too suggests there is more mass present than can be accounted for by the amount of light being given off.

3) Gravitational lensing. The degree of gravitational lensing from galaxies and galaxy clusters suggests there is more mass present than can be accounted for by the amount of light being given off.

4) Variations in Cosmic Background Radiation. These variations are caused by gravitational influence and we can see variations that cannot be explained by baryonic matter (ie., not Dark Matter).

These four (and there are more) observations can all be explained by the existence of Dark Matter. Adding a solution to one of them that uses Dark Matter also basically solves the others. That is - the amount of Dark Matter required to solve all of these problems is the same. Parsimony tells us this is likely due to the fact that Dark Matter is a real phenomenon. Since evidence is that which increases the likelihood of a thing being true, this constitutes evidence that Dark Matter exists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ICANT, posted 05-17-2018 5:04 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2018 12:49 AM Modulous has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6126
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 89 (833152)
05-18-2018 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Modulous
05-17-2018 7:24 PM


Re: Re-Dark Matter
Hi Mod,

Mod writes:

Since evidence is that which increases the likelihood of a thing being true, this constitutes evidence that Dark Matter exists.

Nice work and sounds good. Only one problem you did not present any evidence Dark Matter exist.

But it is a fact that the universe needs something to hold the universe together so everything don't go flying into smaller pieces.

Just because you need Dark Matter does make it exist. With all the billions of dollars spent no one has found a particle that produce what is needed. Not one particle of the 80% has been found. Since it makes up 80% it should be easy to find.

Since energy and matter are interchangeable I would like to refer you to a verse of Scripture. I know you will not like it but it was written prior to 60 AD, almost 2,000 years ago.

quote:
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.



The Greek word pronounced sün-ç'-stâ-mç means:
1.to place together, to set in the same place,to bring or band together.

In other words that is your Dark matter, which holds everything together.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Modulous, posted 05-17-2018 7:24 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2018 2:52 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 39 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2018 10:17 AM ICANT has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6386
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 36 of 89 (833162)
05-18-2018 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by ICANT
05-18-2018 12:49 AM


Re: Re-Dark Matter
ICANT writes:


Only one problem you did not present any evidence Dark Matter exist.

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

In other words that is your Dark matter, which holds everything together.

Your problem is that the world is running out of ignorance. You could quite as easily made the same silly statement prior to the discovery of the Higgs Boson - and every previous discovery predicted by theory. This is the strength of science; it makes predictions and tests those predictions against reality.

You are only able to talk about dark matter because science has revealed it, and when there is an answer for you what then? You'll push onto trying to jemmy whatever science is working on next into a generic sentence in an ancient book as though it's some explanation of anything at all?

quote:
The Higgs boson is an elementary particle in the Standard Model of particle physics. First suspected to exist in the 1960s, it is the quantum excitation of the Higgs field,[6][7] a fundamental field of crucial importance to particle physics theory.[7] Unlike other known fields such as the electromagnetic field, it is scalar and also has a non-zero constant value in vacuum. The question of the existence of the Higgs field became the last unverified part of the Standard Model of particle physics, and for several decades, was considered "the central problem in particle physics".[8][9]

On 4 July 2012, the discovery of a new particle with a mass between 125 and 127 GeV/c2 was announced; physicists suspected that it was the Higgs boson.[11][12][13] Since then, the particle has been shown to behave, interact, and decay in many of the ways predicted for Higgs particles by the Standard Model, as well as having even parity and zero spin,[4][5] two fundamental attributes of a Higgs boson. This also means it is the first elementary scalar particle discovered in nature.[14]


Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2018 12:49 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2018 4:06 AM Tangle has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6126
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 89 (833164)
05-18-2018 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Tangle
05-18-2018 2:52 AM


Re: Re-Dark Matter
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

You are only able to talk about dark matter because science has revealed it,

What has been revealed?

quote:
(in some cosmological theories) nonluminous material that is postulated to exist in space and that could take any of several forms including weakly interacting particles ( cold dark matter ) or high-energy randomly moving particles created soon after the Big Bang ( hot dark matter ).
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=3If-WvvSDdDojw...

postulated past tense
meaning 1. suggest or assume the existence, fact, or truth of (something) as a basis for reasoning, discussion, or belief.

So based on an assumed fact you believe dark matter does exist.
That sound like religion to me.

Now if you got evidence present it.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2018 2:52 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2018 4:42 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 44 by Taq, posted 05-18-2018 12:54 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6386
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 38 of 89 (833165)
05-18-2018 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by ICANT
05-18-2018 4:06 AM


Re: Re-Dark Matter
ICANT writes:

What has been revealed?

That there's more yet to be discovered and understood.

So based on an assumed fact you believe dark matter does exist.

I have no opinion on dark matter, let alone believe in it. If science said tomorrow it was all an arithmetic error I couldn't care less. I read with interest what those that are working in the area are thinking and discovering, that's all.

Like you, I have absolutely no idea whether dark matter exists or not or what it is. Also like you, when science finally understands what it is, I won't understand it either. I'll just find it interesting

That sound like religion to me.

Then you have no idea what science is or what it does. It's futile to make these false comparisons; we know and understand your motivation for wishing this to be true. But it obviously and demonstrably isn't.

I note you make no comment on the prediction and subsequent finding of the Higgs Boson. Inconvenient I guess; rather destroys your argument doesn't it?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2018 4:06 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2018 11:03 AM Tangle has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 83 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 39 of 89 (833178)
05-18-2018 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by ICANT
05-18-2018 12:49 AM


Re: Re-Dark Matter
Nice work and sounds good. Only one problem you did not present any evidence Dark Matter exist.

Wrong.

Just because you need Dark Matter does make it exist.

The fact that including it in the equations balances them out, even though the equations are all different is compelling evidence, however.

With all the billions of dollars spent no one has found a particle that produce what is needed. Not one particle of the 80% has been found. Since it makes up 80% it should be easy to find.

Dark Matter is about 27%. Let me know how one would go about finding something that is invisible.

In other words that is your Dark matter, which holds everything together.

Can you plug it into the equations and produce answers that correspond to observations? No? It appears you are using the methodology humans have employed for thousands of years despite the fact that it continues to fail. God did it has been proposed for all manner of phenomena and we continuously find out it was something other than a deity doing it. Methods this flawed are useless.

If you want to say that God is a weakly interacting material whose only influence on the universe is the extremely weak force of gravity - you can do. I'd have thought the Strong Nuclear Force was a better candidate for God holding everything together than gravity via Dark Matter. Of course, battle of the bible bits is what you think is needed here let me remind you that 'my God will enlighten my darkness.', "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2018 12:49 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2018 12:12 PM Modulous has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6126
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 40 of 89 (833184)
05-18-2018 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Tangle
05-18-2018 4:42 AM


Re: Re-Dark Matter
Hi Tangel,

Tangel writes:

I have no opinion on dark matter, let alone believe in it. If science said tomorrow it was all an arithmetic error I couldn't care less. I read with interest what those that are working in the area are thinking and discovering, that's all.

But the math is correct. Something is required to keep the universe from flying apart.

So scientist came up with an invisible nonluminous material that makes up 80% of the universe. They then named it Dark Matter or Dark Energy.

I simply point out that the Bible recorded 2,000 years ago that God was what held the universe together and everything in it. You don't have to accept it or reject it. But you are free to do either, I just delivered the message.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2018 4:42 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2018 11:18 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 70 by NoNukes, posted 05-20-2018 2:53 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6386
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 41 of 89 (833187)
05-18-2018 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by ICANT
05-18-2018 11:03 AM


Re: Re-Dark Matter
ICANT writes:

But the math is correct. Something is required to keep the universe from flying apart.

Good.

So scientist came up with an invisible nonluminous material that makes up 80% of the universe. They then named it Dark Matter or Dark Energy.

Yes, clever aren't they? They now start the process of understanding it.

I simply point out that the Bible recorded 2,000 years ago that God was what held the universe together and everything in it. You don't have to accept it or reject it. But you are free to do either, I just delivered the message.

Yes that was all you did; you pointed out that an ancient text claimed that god made everything. Thanks, we all know that. Sadly it explains nothing except that someone we don't know wrote something useless.

Now to get back to Higgs. What's different about science doing the sums and predicting a particle and then finding it and science doing the sums and going off to look for dark matter?

It seems that you have a model in your mind of god physically holding stuff together. I feel required to reject that concept until we can detect this particular god particle.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2018 11:03 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2018 12:52 PM Tangle has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6126
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 42 of 89 (833196)
05-18-2018 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Modulous
05-18-2018 10:17 AM


Re: Re-Dark Matter
Hi Mod,

Mod writes:

Dark Matter is about 27%. Let me know how one would go about finding something that is invisible.

quote:
In the standard Lambda-CDM model of cosmology, the total mass–energy of the universe contains 4.9% ordinary matter and energy, 26.8% dark matter and 68.3% of an unknown form of energy known as dark energy.

Wikipedia uses the 80% Dark Matter number.

Since energy and matter are interchangeable many references to dark matter contain both in one number.
But actually when you add the numbers together you get 95.1% of the universe is an unknown quantity. That should make it much easier to find. But the numbers vary depending on whose figures you use.

Either way they are looking for something that nobody has ever observed, and are without a clue as to what it is. Other than a force that keeps the universe at critical density (holds it together).

Mod writes:

Can you plug it into the equations and produce answers that correspond to observations?

Normal matter =4.9% of the critical density in the universe.
Leaving 95.1% of the universe of an unknown, quantity that is invisible, does not absorb light nor emit light and can not be observed.

I know that is probably too simple to satisfy you.

So let me say it another way.

You would say NM+DM+DE=critical density.

I say NM+GE=critical density.

Either of the two could be true or both could be false with another solution. We will not know until the experiment has been completed.

Mod writes:

'my God will enlighten my darkness.',"God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.".

Glory Hallelujah you have finally said something I can agree with 100%. I just hope you really believe what you said.

My God can do anything but fail. And He does have enough of a supply of energy to accomplish any task He desires to complete.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2018 10:17 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2018 3:31 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6126
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 89 (833205)
05-18-2018 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Tangle
05-18-2018 11:18 AM


Re: Re-Dark Matter
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

Sadly it explains nothing except that someone we don't know wrote something useless.

Lets see: no one has seen dark energy or dark matter. No one knows what it is made of. They just know that something that is needed to keep the universe at critical density is require and has dreamed up what they call dark energy and dark matter.

You have not seen God nor do you know what He is made of. All we know is we need something to keep the universe at critical density.

How do you know God does not supply the energy and matter to produce a universe at critical density. Critical density has a very small variation from collapse to expansion. That variation is very small.

Tangle writes:

Now to get back to Higgs.

When I was first introduce to the Higgs boson it was called the God particle. That was like the particle Hawking called an instanton in that when it existed it would create a universe like the one we live in.

Seems now it is regulated to being like any other particle just a little harder to find than many were.

Since they found what they called the Higgs, I haven't heard of any new universes.

Tangle writes:

It seems that you have a model in your mind of god physically holding stuff together. I feel required to reject that concept until we can detect this particular god particle.

No Tangle I do not think my God has to go around holding the universe together physically. I believe He gave everything in the universe directions by natural laws that covers all those mundane jobs.

Mankind is the only thing God created that has stopped doing what God created him to do. Everything else continues on as programed.

There are no flukes, or mistakes, everything happens for a purpose.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2018 11:18 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2018 1:37 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7628
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 44 of 89 (833207)
05-18-2018 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by ICANT
05-18-2018 4:06 AM


Re: Re-Dark Matter
ICANT writes:

That sound like religion to me.

It is interesting that you never hear a scientist trying to discredit religious beliefs by calling them science. However, you very often seen people with religious beliefs trying to discredit scientific theories by calling them religions. Says a lot about how they view their own religious beliefs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2018 4:06 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6386
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 45 of 89 (833211)
05-18-2018 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ICANT
05-18-2018 12:52 PM


Re: Re-Dark Matter
ICANT writes:

Lets see: no one has seen dark energy or dark matter. No one knows what it is made of. They just know that something that is needed to keep the universe at critical density is require and has dreamed up what they call dark energy and dark matter.

Yes, like I said, they're clever aren't they?

You have not seen God

And neither have you.

nor do you know what He is made of.

Well, the thing is, there's no evidence at all for him so....

All we know is we need something to keep the universe at critical density.

Nope. We know all sorts of things about our universe, including that everything we've ever discovered has a natural cause so this one will more than likely have one too.

How do you know God does not supply the energy and matter to produce a universe at critical density.

How do you know it wasn't a pink, universal unicorn?

When I was first introduce to the Higgs boson it was called the God particle. That was like the particle Hawking called an instanton in that when it existed it would create a universe like the one we live in.

Seems now it is regulated to being like any other particle just a little harder to find than many were.

Since they found what they called the Higgs, I haven't heard of any new universes.

You're still avoiding the question aren't you? The argument you make for dark matter is identical to the argument that could be made for the Higg's boson before it was discovered. Espite its name god was not found therein.

No Tangle I do not think my God has to go around holding the universe together physically. I believe He gave everything in the universe directions by natural laws that covers all those mundane jobs.

Fabulous, enjoy your belief. Meanwhile science will work it out.

Mankind is the only thing God created that has stopped doing what God created him to do.

Not so infallible then, eh?

Everything else continues on as programed.

Everything else? There I was thinking all this was all about us.

There are no flukes, or mistakes, everything happens for a purpose.

Any clue what that might be?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2018 12:52 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Astronomy, posted 05-18-2018 1:45 PM Tangle has responded

  
Prev12
3
456Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018