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Author Topic:   Creation
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 696 of 1482 (833146)
05-17-2018 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 693 by Stile
05-15-2018 10:20 AM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
Hi Stile
Stile writes:
Do you understand how comparing my stretching rubber road is different from a moving sidewalk?
That would work only if the rubber road was anchored where Tom is standing. If it is anchored 10 yards behind Tom the part he is standing on will be moving.
This won't work like space expanding.
quote:
The universe is not expanding out from a centre into space; rather, the whole universe is expanding and it is doing so equally at all places, as far as we can tell.
Where is the centre of the universe?
That really sounds like an oxymoron to me.
No center yet expanding equally at all places. But I find it in many places.
If the pin point expanded equally at all places it would have expanded equally in all directions from the pin point. Therefore the pin point would be the center.
But your road can only go in one direction.
Since your road or my walkway does not do that we should dispense with them to the garbage can.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 693 by Stile, posted 05-15-2018 10:20 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 697 by NoNukes, posted 05-17-2018 6:59 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 698 by Modulous, posted 05-17-2018 7:52 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 704 by Stile, posted 05-18-2018 12:38 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 699 of 1482 (833153)
05-18-2018 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 695 by NoNukes
05-15-2018 5:17 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
Right. The energy existed from the time the universe was tiny. That means that gravity was present.
If gravity existed and was holding everything together when everything in the universe was the size of a pin head, what mechanism caused it to begin to expand?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 695 by NoNukes, posted 05-15-2018 5:17 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 700 of 1482 (833155)
05-18-2018 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 697 by NoNukes
05-17-2018 6:59 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
Let's be clear about what you are saying. What is "it" that won't work if the rubber road is not anchored at the point where Tom is standing.
Stiles numbers.
If the road was not stretching at the point Tom was standing he would remain in the same position until he moved towards the truck.
When he covered the first 3 yards the road would be stretching under him and he would be moving more than the 3 yards because he would move as far as the road stretched plus his 3 yards. A rubber road would stretch not expand.
NoNukes writes:
The universe is not anchored in that way. I cannot make sense out of what you said, so I am asking for you to explain what you mean.
According to the Standard theory the universe existed and was about the size of a pin point at the earliest we can know anything.
At this time some mechanism caused the pin point to begin to expand. If all space expanded it would have expanded in every direction equally, symmetrically.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by NoNukes, posted 05-17-2018 6:59 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 702 by NoNukes, posted 05-18-2018 9:49 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 701 of 1482 (833163)
05-18-2018 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 698 by Modulous
05-17-2018 7:52 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
Hi Mod,
Mod writes:
Problem is - is that there is no pin point. It expanded.
Did the pin point expand or did the material that the universe is composed of expand from that point?
Mod writes:
That's why in whatever direction you look at - you see the CMBR. It is the earliest moments of the big bang and it isn't 'in the middle', or it would only exist in one direction - it's around us. Because there is no centre.
Why would you or anyone think the earliest moments of the big bang would be at the center of the universe?
The material that is the farthest from the pin point is the oldest because it was the first material that left the pin point. Then the material that left a few seconds later would be closer to the pin point etc.
The material that is the closest to the pin point was in the center of the pin point. But it would be a long way from the pin point. That pin point is getting bigger and bigger all the time. That could be what is call the biggest black hole in the universe. Everything has been expanding away from that pin point and leaving nothing but space behind.
Mod writes:
So imagine a spherical balloon the size of a pinpoint. All that exists however, is the surface of the balloon. There is no 'interior' to the balloon
Do you really want me to believe there is no 'interior' to a balloon?
There is an interior to the universe just as there is an interior of the earth.
Everything did not leave the pin point at the same moment as the space between each smallest part of energy that had space between had the space growing between them.
I don't like the balloon as it will not make the same expansion that the universe made.
I was searching for s good example and I found one I think fits the same thing the standard theory says happened. You can find it at http://www.wwu.edu/skywise/hubble_pudding.html.
It will expand as soon as you reach the site. To see it expand click on big crunch and it will disappear. Then click on big bang to make it expand.
Notice this starts off with nothing but a black screen. But what if the screen was not there?
As you can notice the raisins get further apart as the pudding expands. The raisins will be scattered all the way to the starting point of the expansion. With the exception the ones closer to the starting point of the expansion would leave an area without any raisins. If the pudding were to grow larger and larger the raisins near the center would leave behind a larger space that would have no raisins.
You could cut the pudding and you would find raisins scattered throughout the pudding. With a large space at the middle with no raisins.
The only problem with that is that the pudding could only be so big. The universe is different in that it has no limits it can expand.
Providing space is expanding equally everywhere symmetrically there would be a very large space that is growing constantly where the pin point used to be. I suppose that space would have to be filled with Dark Matter if it exists.
Mod writes:
If you insist that the centre is in the middle of the sphere - then you are saying that the centre of the universe is not in the universe.
But even your balloon has a center as it has a diameter. Half of that diameter is the radius. The radius could be placed anywhere from the center around in the balloon. Now you say the balloon has no interior, but it does but it contains only air.
Are you saying the universe expanded as the balloon when filled with air? In other words there is nothing between the fabric of the universe and the point expansion began. Is that what you are saying? The only way you could get that is if an explosion took place in the middle of the pin point. But that is not what the standard theory supports.
God Bless

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by Modulous, posted 05-17-2018 7:52 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 703 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2018 10:26 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 705 of 1482 (833208)
05-18-2018 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 704 by Stile
05-18-2018 12:38 PM


Poor Tom:
Hi Stile,
Stile writes:
Here, Tom and the Truck are both on a moving-expanding-roadway... they are both moving as the roadway has a constant expansion - but here the distance between Tom and the Truck is changing because the constant expansion affects the roadway in between them. Even though both Tom and the Truck are stationary on the moving (due to it's expansion) road.
A rubber road would not expand like space in all directions at one time.
A rubber road would only get longer in the direction it was stretched from a stationary starting point and would eventually reach a breaking point. Try a rubber band and see how far you can stretch it.
Tom would either eventually reach his truck or die trying by the end that broke between him and his truck snapped back and struck him like the rubber band did your hand.
This turkey is done.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 704 by Stile, posted 05-18-2018 12:38 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 706 by DrJones*, posted 05-18-2018 1:42 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 708 by Stile, posted 05-18-2018 1:47 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 711 by Phat, posted 05-18-2018 3:04 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 707 of 1482 (833214)
05-18-2018 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 703 by Modulous
05-18-2018 10:26 AM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
Hi Mod,
Mod writes:
The pinpoint expanded.
I actually thought the standard theory said the space that existed at the pin point is what expanded. That would mean all the space between the tinny, tinny, little parts of the pin point, expanded. Spreading the pin point apart. The parts that were nearer to the center of the pin point would not move nearly as far in the first second as those on the outside of the pin point. Because there are those that are farther away from others today. Had they left together and traveled the same speed there would be a ring like a donut today.
My biggest problem with this little pin point is how everything in this massive universe was squished into such a small volume.
Mod writes:
All material is the same age. When we look at the CMBR we are seeing the universe at its youngest.
I would assume it was all the same age as it all existed at the pin point or at least that is what I am told, and read. Guth would disagree as he believes in a free lunch, and a zero energy universe.
But it all could not have left the pin point at the same time. The outside would have left first and the last 3 whatever you want to call them would leave last and head in 3 different directions.
Think of three raisins touching each other on the table. The space between them begins to enlarge in all directions, which way would the different raisins go? Wouldn't each one of them go in a different direction?
Mod writes:
And that would be everywhere.
And how would that be brought about? And what do you mean by everywhere?
Mod writes:
But that's not what we observe. Otherwise we could tell the direction of the pin point.
We observe stuff going in all directions from us. If you look east a lot of stuff is headed that way. If you turn and look west a lot of stuff is headed that way. If you look north a lot of stuff is headed that way. If you look south a lot of stuff is headed that way. If you were to look any direction on a circle you could turn you would see stuff heading that way.
Now some of that stuff may be traveling in the same direction as where you are located just at a slower pace as you are traveling making that object appear to be moving away from you. You should be able to find that picture in Stiles rubber road.
But they have found just such a place. A super black hole that is expanding very rapidly.
Mod writes:
There is no interior to the 2 dimensional surface of a balloon, no. There is left-right and up-down but no in-out. Until you can understand the principle in 1 or 2 dimensions, you haven't a hope of understanding it in 3.
If a balloon is filled with air it has height, width, and depth, that means it is a 3d object.
A balloon with no air in it would represent anything other than an airless balloon. It certainly would not be representative of the universe.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 703 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2018 10:26 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 709 by DrJones*, posted 05-18-2018 1:56 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 712 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2018 3:54 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 713 by AZPaul3, posted 05-18-2018 11:09 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 714 of 1482 (833281)
05-19-2018 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 711 by Phat
05-18-2018 3:04 PM


Re: Methods Of Approaching Discussion.
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
I sense that you are trying to reason with Modulous, Dr.Jones, Stile, and the rest, but that you approach your reasoning with the presupposition of your belief that God exists and that the universe was created by Him. Your opponents, however, are not so concerned with connecting creation to a Creator as they are about trying to explain to you how natural laws work and how the universe was formed/created through these laws.
Phat I am actually trying to understand what it is they are trying to say. But I guess Einstein was right when he said that if you could not explain your proposition where it could be understood you did not know the subject well enough yourself.
What is expansion of the universe? No one seems to know.
Edwin Hubble made the observations in 1925 that the universe was expanding.
Expansion of the universe is the increase of the distance between two distant parts of the universe with time.
To me that means that the stuff that looks empty but is filled with dark matter and dark energy is what is expanding.
The galaxies are said to not be expanding.
Then there is the balloon analogy that everybody wants to use to tell me what the universe looks like and how it is expanding.
I am told take a balloon and put a bunch of dots on it to represent the galaxies. Then I am to inflate the balloon which causes the dots to move apart. This is supposed to give me a picture of what is taking place with expansion.
All those dots are on the outside of the balloon which represents that all the galaxies is on the outside of the universe, with nothing inside the balloon and I assume the universe as well.
That is not what is observed.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 711 by Phat, posted 05-18-2018 3:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 715 by Phat, posted 05-19-2018 9:11 AM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 716 of 1482 (833284)
05-19-2018 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 709 by DrJones*
05-18-2018 1:56 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
Hi Dr.
Dr writes:
He's not talking about a balloon as a whole, he's talking about the SURFACE of the balloon.
Yes I understand he is talking about the surface of the balloon. The surface is on the outside of the balloon. The dots representing the galaxies are on the outside of the balloon.
I am supposed to see these dots as representing the galaxies of our universe.
But there is nothing outside of the universe according to cavediver and Son Goku. We had a pretty heated debate about that exact thing over the balloon analogy.
To me the balloon analogy explains nothing. Because the galaxies are not attached to the fabric of the universe.
That balloon does have a center around which the exterior surface of the balloon surrounds and keeps the air inside when inflated.
The Hubble telescope can let scientist see over 13 billion light years away. There is all kinds of stuff between our Milky Way and the extent of what the Hubble telescope can let us view.
It does not make any difference which way the Hubble telescope is pointed it produces the same results.
I am told that the space between our Milky Way and Hubbles's extent of vision is expanding between all the galaxies. Because at one time everything in the universe was in one place.
Now the balloon analogy would lead me to believe that all those objects in the view of the Hubble telescope is the same distance from me as it is attached to the fabric of space.
So for now I am going to try to clear my mind about the balloon and think of something different.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 709 by DrJones*, posted 05-18-2018 1:56 PM DrJones* has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 726 by ringo, posted 05-19-2018 11:58 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 720 of 1482 (833290)
05-19-2018 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 713 by AZPaul3
05-18-2018 11:09 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
Hi AZ,
AZ writes:
Now that is a good analogy.
Thanks, I am going to try to expand on that analogy and see if maybe I can explain what I am trying to say. Remember I am a learning process in progress, hopefully.
Lets change that 3 raisins to 10 lbs of raisins.
Now let us do a little imagining.
Lets imagine that 10 lbs of raisins is compressed into a ball of raisins the size of a symmetrical English pea.
I don't know what psi it would take to accomplish that feat but I would think it would be in the range of thousands or millions of lbs psi.
Regardless there would be space between the raisins. All of a sudden the space between the raisins begins to expand. The raisins on the surface would separate from the ball of raisins first as the space would expand faster at the surface than the interior of the ball.
Lets say the space is expanding at the rate of 50,000 miles per second, for our thought experiment. That would mean the raisins on the surface of the ball would be 50,000 miles from the one it was touching 1 second earlier. But that raisin would have moved as the space between it and the other raisin it was touching expanded. This space could not expand at the same rate as the earlier space due to the restraints of the pressure it was under.
After a couple of minutes that 10 lbs of raisins would be spread over quite a large area. The space between each raisin would continue to expand driving the raisins further and further apart. After an hour or so there would be no raisins that was anywhere near the raisins they had been in contact with just 1 hour prior.
Unless there is some other mechanism to bring these raisins together there would never be any contact between any of the raisins in the future.
AZ writes:
Make yourself really small tiny and stand on one of the raisins. Climb to the top of one of the raisin-mountains and look out at the space around you. What do you see?
Yes I understand that. Just like if I jumped on one of the raisins leaving my ball of raisins. Even the raisins following me would look like they were going in the opposite direction from my location. The raisins to my left would be going away from me. The raisins to my right would be going away from me. The raisins I could look up and see would be going away from me. The raisins I could look down and see would be going away from me.
All of that would be taking place because the space is expanding between all objects.
But all of a sudden I look ahead and I got one mean ugly raisin that is headed toward me and we are going to collide. That tells me the space between us is not expanding but decreasing which tell me there is something wrong with my thought experiment or the real thing of expansion.
I am referring to Andromeda and its collision with the Milky Way.
If they started in the same place and the space expanded between every object the collision could not take place.
AZ writes:
To your perspective you are on the privileged dot in this limited 2D universe since the other dots are moving away from you.
No I don't think I am on a privileged dot. I just see everything moving away from me. Although I know some are moving in the same direction as I am. Because the space is expanding between my dot and all the other dots.
AZ writes:
Every dot is the center of the universe,
No dot is the center of the universe. It is in the center of the surface of the balloon relative to all the other dots on the surface of the balloon.
AZ writes:
Every galaxy sees itself as the center of the universe just like my privileged dot on the surface of the balloon.
If the galaxies were on the exterior of the universe as the dots on the balloon they would be at the center of the surface of the exterior of the universe relative to all the other galaxies on the surface of the universe.
The problem is that the galaxies are not on the surface of the universe. They are in the universe as they are apart of the universe. They are scattered throughout the universe just as my raisins were scattered relative to the location of the ball of raisins when it started to expand.
Let me see if I can sum up what I see, according to the standard theory.
The universe was very small in the past. In fact everything in the universe was in the self-contained universe that was all in a place the size of a pea or pinpoint that began to expand. The space between each object expanded at a very rapid pace.
Everything in the universe is contained in that expanded pea sized object that is very large at the present.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 713 by AZPaul3, posted 05-18-2018 11:09 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 721 by Phat, posted 05-19-2018 11:04 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 722 by NoNukes, posted 05-19-2018 11:14 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 733 by AZPaul3, posted 05-19-2018 1:19 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 724 of 1482 (833301)
05-19-2018 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 712 by Modulous
05-18-2018 3:54 PM


Re: ballooning pinpoints
Hi Mod,
Mod writes:
All of space expanded.
Except that which ended up in the galaxies.
Mod writes:
There was no centre to the pin point.
But we are not talking about a pin point. We are talking about something that is the size of a pin point or pea.
If you cut the point off a pin with a pair of side cutters you would have a relatively round object. That object would have a center just as the earth has a center.
Mod writes:
There was no other place for it to be.
And just because there was no other place for all the stuff that is in the universe it had to exist in something the size of a pin point or a pea.
What would be a mechanism that could exert that much pressure on the contents of the universe that it could reside in such a small place?
Since it did expand, why didn't it expand sooner?
Since it did not expand sooner, what caused it to expand when it did?
Talk about magic.
Mod writes:
Yes, all material is the same age. But when we look at CMBR we are looking at light that has taken 13 billion years to get to us. What we're seeing is what it looked like 13 billion years ago.
How do you know it took 13 billion years to get here?
This hot little universe that expanded into our universe we have today was supper hot. I kind of get the idea that would have lit the entire universe as it expanded. Which would have been an extended light period of unknown duration. You do remember I have just such a extended light period in my creation story.
Mod writes:
There was no leaving the pin point.
Are you saying the universe is still the size of the pin point sized object that contained the universe?
Mod writes:
Take a map of the earth - where is the centre? There is none.
Correct for the map as it is a 2d picture. On the other hand the earth does have a center that is called the core. Just as the universe has a center.
Do you believe the universe is like a rubber sheet?
Do you believe the universe is like a saddle?
Or do you believe the space of the universe expanded in all directions symmetrically, which would create a universe in the shape of a sphere.
Mod writes:
By everywhere I mean everywhere. All of space.
Was that space outside of the pin sized object?
Or was it between the objects that composed the pin sized object?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 712 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2018 3:54 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 725 by Phat, posted 05-19-2018 11:55 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 734 by Modulous, posted 05-19-2018 3:08 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 728 of 1482 (833307)
05-19-2018 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 722 by NoNukes
05-19-2018 11:14 AM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes:
In this case, we have a sentence that you have just thrown in with no justification. The restraints of what pressure ICANT? Pressure results from having some force between objects, and you have not postulated any such thing.
I think I had mentioned taking 10 lbs of raisins and compressing them into a ball the size of a pea. That would require an extreme amount of pressure on the ball of raisins.
NoNukes writes:
In the real universe, there are forces between objects and the rate of expansion of nearby objects is small. In fact far less than 50,000 miles per second for nearby objects, which is a number you seem to have pulled out of thin air anyway.
It was an imaginary number. You can use any number you desire. A mile a second would scatter my raisins over a large area in a very short time.
What are the forces you are talking about?
How did they form under such conditions of expansion?
Remember space is supposed to be expanding symmetrically in all direction at 41.6 miles per second.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 722 by NoNukes, posted 05-19-2018 11:14 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 735 by NoNukes, posted 05-19-2018 6:05 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 730 of 1482 (833309)
05-19-2018 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 726 by ringo
05-19-2018 11:58 AM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
The galaxies are wrinkles in the fabric of the universe.
What part of the universe?
The outside surface of the fabric of the universe as the outside surface of the balloon?
The inside of the surface of the fabric of the universe?
Galaxies are observed to be scattered through out the entire universe.
ringo writes:
It's only the surface of the balloon that we're considering in the analogy. The surface of the balloon has no center.
Are you saying that the universe only has a outside surface? Therefore it does not have a center.
But there is no analogy of the 2d balloon with no air in it. When you put air in it the balloon has a center. It has height, width, and depth, making it a 3d object having a center like the earth.
In other words the balloon analogy is one of the worst representations of the universe I have ever seen.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 726 by ringo, posted 05-19-2018 11:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 732 by ringo, posted 05-19-2018 12:27 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 736 of 1482 (833356)
05-20-2018 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 733 by AZPaul3
05-19-2018 1:19 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
Hi AZ
AZ writes:
No. All the space, even the space between the raisins in the center of the ball, would expand at the given rate at the same time. Lets assume that there is space between each raisin. Since every point of space is expanding at the same rate (50,000 miles per second) at the end of the first second each raisin (all of them) is now 50,000 miles from each of the raisins it was nearest to a second ago. From the perspective of a raisin on the outer edge of the ball, a raisin on the opposite edge of the ball will have appeared to inflate outward at an enormously wild rate of many multiple times the 50,000 miles per second rate.
I want to address this part of the post and I will get to the rest later.
I am going to guess the 3 raisins we started with has 1,000 raisins between themselves and the raisins on the exterior of the ball.
If the raisin next to those three raisins moved 50,000 miles in one second and all the rest moved the same distance from the raisin next to it, it would be a far piece to the one that was on the exterior of the ball when expansion began.
1,000 raisins with 50,000 miles between each.
The three raisins would be 50,000 miles from where they were.
Making the one that was on the surface at least 50,000,000 miles from the three raisins we started with.
All this would be accomplished in 1 second.
Is that what you are telling me?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 733 by AZPaul3, posted 05-19-2018 1:19 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 741 by AZPaul3, posted 05-20-2018 5:16 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 737 of 1482 (833379)
05-20-2018 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 732 by ringo
05-19-2018 12:27 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
Yes.
So the galaxies are wrinkles in the outside of the fabric of the universe.
How is that possible when there is no outside of the universe?
ringo writes:
The inside surface is not part of the analogy. Neither is the air inside the balloon. Neither is the Volkswagen passing by in the street.
So the galaxies are not wrinkles on the inside surface of the fabric of the universe.
But the air in the balloon and the balloon as well as the Volkswagen passing by on the street are on the inside of the universe.
ringo writes:
Yes.
So according to ringo the outside of the universe has a surface.
How is that possible as there is no outside of the universe?
ringo writes:
The whole point of an analogy is to focus on the important points. When you call Jesus the Lamb of God you don't think about shearing Him or making Him into stew, do you?
Jesus is referred to the Lamb of God because He was offered as a sacrifice for you and everybody else to restore each to a right relationship with God.
Before His sacrifice lambs were offered on the altar of sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.
ringo writes:
You can misunderstand anything if you try hard enough.
My understanding or misunderstanding of the balloon analogy has nothing to do with it being the worst analogy to represent the universe. I just take Ask an Astronomer in the Astronomy Department at Cornell University's word for it. They say: "it should be banished forever into the dustbin of history because it's the source of so much confusion".
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 732 by ringo, posted 05-19-2018 12:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 749 by ringo, posted 05-22-2018 11:58 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 738 of 1482 (833380)
05-20-2018 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 735 by NoNukes
05-19-2018 6:05 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes:
In what way is space or the universe like that, ICANT? Was the original singularity made of compressed matter?
According to the standard theory everything in the universe visible and invisible was packed into that small, dense, hot little thingy that expanded into the universe we have today. .
But I only imagined 10 lbs of raisins packed into such an area.
Now if you could address the space that would have been between the raisins and how that space would expand and two of those raisins ever coming into contact with any other raisin of that 10 lbs of raisins I think that would help me to understand expansion of the universe.
Do you have such knowledge you could share?
NoNukes writes:
My point is that you cannot make up stuff in an analogy and then claim that it represents something real. Your raisin analogy is worthless.
I thought all analogy's were made up stuff, to represent other stuff.
But since you disagree you have the floor and are invited to explain exactly how the universe and it's contents were compressed into such a small object. Then how and why the space between that stuff began to expand. That is enough for starters but I got more I would like for you to explain after you get through with that.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 735 by NoNukes, posted 05-19-2018 6:05 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 740 by NoNukes, posted 05-20-2018 4:52 PM ICANT has replied

  
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