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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 121 of 882 (832710)
05-08-2018 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ringo
05-07-2018 12:08 PM


Lady Wisdom
ringo writes:
I've asked you this many times and I really wish you would answer it before spouting the same nonsense over and over again: If you can communicate with your God, why is there no sign of the wisdom He's supposedly imparting to you?
To begin with, how would we even measure this wisdom nor determine its source?
I believe that God gives me wisdom or at least allows me to have more, but I have no way of proving that he is in any way involved in the loop.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 05-07-2018 12:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2018 4:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 05-09-2018 3:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 128 of 882 (832771)
05-10-2018 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by ringo
05-09-2018 3:07 PM


Re: Lady Wisdom
well you have a pointy. But what intrigues me is why your confirmation bias works quite the opposite of mine. I try and make many connections that confirm Gods presence...whereas you make many astute comments and observations which only serve to confirm His absence. Do you feel as if you are hardwired to disbelieve and to find ever more reasons for doing so?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 05-09-2018 3:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 05-10-2018 6:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 05-10-2018 3:31 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 132 of 882 (832778)
05-10-2018 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by jar
05-10-2018 9:27 AM


Re: Lady Wisdom - open minded skepticism
Are you thus suggesting that honest Christians should at least admit that their beliefs are not logical, rational or in many cases even reasonable? I can go with that to a degree...but I don't like my Faith to be determined solely by evidence. In many cases (such as Gods existence or non-existence) evidence is impossible to come by, but the belief persists.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 05-10-2018 9:27 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 05-10-2018 9:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 135 by Tangle, posted 05-11-2018 3:06 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 168 of 882 (832871)
05-13-2018 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
05-13-2018 9:09 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
I thought that your comment was deadpan humor (or an attempt at such). I didnt think you were serious.
What right do humans have to enact Gods laws anyway?(assuming they actually were Gods laws)
Not sure if this is the right topic to discuss this....unless we are studying rational thinking in both a religious context(Bible says it so it must be true) vs a scientific context (what moral justification is there for a given action).

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 9:09 AM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 172 of 882 (832875)
05-13-2018 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by GDR
05-13-2018 9:53 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
GDR writes:
"God breathed" is not the same thing as God dictated. I agree that God breathes life into the Scriptures and that God reaches out to us through the Scriptures, but when you read it with your understanding you wind up with a perverted view of the nature of God as well as of His desire of how we should live our lives.
Which brings us to the debate on how God communicates with humanity, (if in fact He does).
My belief is that Jesus is alive...in the sense that the Creator of all seen and unseen embodied a human character that has never stayed dead. Consequently, we too are capable of actions warranting eternal life if we follow this embodied Spirit (character) rather than our own carnal imaginations. This gets to the heart of the issue between religion and science on one level.
Science has evidence for a brain, a body, and learned behavior.
Religion believes in an eternal Spirit that embodies us through choice and decision.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 9:53 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 4:36 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 173 of 882 (832876)
05-13-2018 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
05-13-2018 9:09 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith writes:
GDR complains that the death penalty is executed out of public sight.
I suggested that perhaps we should bring back public stonings.
Lets take a group of people who believe that the Bible is one of Gods ways to speak to us.
  • Do they follow their conscience when it disagrees with the strict literal interpretation of the Bible or do they go with the literal interpretation?
  • When you pray for wisdom or inspiration, do you ask for this wisdom to build on what the Bible says or do you ask for an overall understanding of what the book (or God Himself) says to us now...today...in the current context?
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 167 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 9:09 AM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 175 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 10:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 225 of 882 (833037)
    05-16-2018 11:07 AM
    Reply to: Message 223 by Faith
    05-16-2018 10:32 AM


    Perusing The Discussion...
    Browsing this morning when I saw this exchange:
    Aussie writes:
    I suspect you are being dishonest here; dishonest with yourself as much as with the rest of us here following the conversation. Rather than a general lack of interest in this piece of "God-breathed" Scripture, I think it is much more likely that you have absolutely no idea how to reconcile this bald-faced contradiction in any meaningful way.
    Faith writes:
    That's true but I'm also sure it can be reconciled, and I'm also not interested enough to find out how.
    Aussie writes:
    There are not hundreds of references to the Trinity, and most of the few that are used in an attempt to justify it, are far from clear.
    FYI, Ive never seen hundreds. The ones commonly used by the apologists are these:
    Deuteronomy 6:4
    Matthew 3:16-17
    Matthew 28:19
    2 Corinthians 13:14
    1 Peter 1:2
    Faith writes:
    It should only take a few in any case, but I can show you hundreds nevertheless. Once it is clear there is only one God, and yet the Father is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, and the Son is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, and the Holy Spirit is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, that's the Trinity.
    But Faith, Aussie has already been down that road and has read the book. How would it become clear to anyone not previously inclined that there is One God? Atheists see no God.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 223 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 10:32 AM Faith has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 232 by NoNukes, posted 05-16-2018 12:00 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 227 of 882 (833039)
    05-16-2018 11:24 AM
    Reply to: Message 224 by Aussie
    05-16-2018 10:55 AM


    Re: Revising The Book
    Aussie writes:
    were these people merely "Bronze age Goobers," or were they men being used as the hand of God, writing His perfect Word, under His inspiration? This is not a small point to clarify; the entirety of conservative Christendom hinges on this Doctrinal Center of Gravity.
    I Timothy describes Scripture as being given by Inspiration of God. The Greek word literally translates to "God-Breathed." Either those words are the breath of God given for our instruction, or they are actually the superstitious scribblings of long-dead "Bronze age Goobers."
    If you hold to the former proposition, why such a seeming disrespect for the authors? And if they wrote under God's hand, God's knowledge of reality is not limited, and His words should still confound and amaze us even today. So we should not have a better grasp of reality today. Would you mind clarifying for me please?
    Hi Aussie. IIRC, my exchange with ringo (in which we always have an undercurrent of humor)
    was that ringo has followed jars belief in literal interpretation that ends up disagreeing with what classical apologetics concludes the book means.
    jar claims that the OT God was "fumbling, indecisive and in need of correction". While this is strictly arguable, it frames the issue in light of the book simply being a made up product of man. The apologists would of course disagree.
    I am aware of the whole argument of God-breathed scripture. It has been said this way before:
    quote:
    There are a few principles of interpretation that are basic for all sound
    study of the Bible. They include the following: (1) Narratives should be
    interpreted in light of teaching passages. For example, the story of
    Abraham offering Isaac on Mount Moriah might suggest that God didn’t
    know that Abraham had true faith. But the didactic portions of Scripture
    make it clear that God is omniscient. (2) The implicit must always be
    interpreted in light of the explicit; never the other way around. That is, if a
    particular text seems to imply something, we should not accept the
    implication as correct if it goes against something explicitly stated
    elsewhere in Scripture. (3) The laws of logic govern biblical interpretation.
    If, for example, we know that all cats have tails, we cannot then deduce
    that some cats do not have tails. If it is true that some cats do not have
    tails, then it cannot also be true that all cats have tails. This is not a matter
    merely of technical laws of inference; it is a matter of common sense. Yet
    the vast majority of erroneous interpretations of the Bible are caused by
    illegitimate deductions from the Scripture.
    In other words, to conclude that God was a bumbling fool learning on the job flies in the face of classical apologetics. ringo is essentially asking me why I should take the word as written since we all know that it was written by Bronze Age herdsman. I then ask him essentially why we rhetorically cannot assume that in this day and age we have superior understanding above them then.
    I see your point, though.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 224 by Aussie, posted 05-16-2018 10:55 AM Aussie has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 228 by jar, posted 05-16-2018 11:44 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 252 of 882 (833134)
    05-17-2018 11:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 228 by jar
    05-16-2018 11:44 AM


    What It Means To Be A Christian
    jar writes:
    Phat, stop thinking of the Bible as one continuing saga; it's not. It is a collection of different tales by different authors created over untold centuries meat to reach the audience of the period when they were written and reflecting the God created by the peoples of that era.
    Genesis is NOT one story.
    There is no "God of the Old Testament" or "New Testament" or "The Bible".
    I see your reasoning. I have never agreed with the idea that we are to throw God away and make the religion/belief/action center around us.
    To claim that we are Christians and yet also claim that we have no idea Who God is or whether GOD even exists is an insult to the name Christian.
    This whole idea that a bunch of ancient fables and mythos created by man only means that we are charged to do our best for each other is admittedly logical and reasonable apart from the fact that your Sunday school class mentions God only as an ancient myth created by humans. Not acceptable.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 228 by jar, posted 05-16-2018 11:44 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 253 by Stile, posted 05-17-2018 11:52 AM Phat has replied
     Message 254 by jar, posted 05-17-2018 11:56 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 255 of 882 (833239)
    05-18-2018 4:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 253 by Stile
    05-17-2018 11:52 AM


    Re: What It Means To Be A Christian
    Stile writes:
    An honest Christian realizes that they do not know who God is or even if God exists because there is no evidence. But, despite this, the honest Christian continues to search for God and do good through God as best they can.
    An honest Christian realizes that there is no "easy set of rules" laid out on how to be good through God. No one "has the answer!" that will always work for all situations because such an answer is impossible because of the complexities of different possible situations and different possibilities that could work.
    Is it dishonest to believe that God is in communion with me through Spirit and that though there is no easy set of rules there is, in fact, an internal awareness made possible through this communion? I can honestly say that in the scientific sense, I do not know that God exists and cannot provide evidence, but my belief supports the idea that God is alive and eternally with us in Spirit and that this belief is an unevidenced one objectively. (Though strongly sensed subjectively)

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 253 by Stile, posted 05-17-2018 11:52 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 256 of 882 (833240)
    05-18-2018 4:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 254 by jar
    05-17-2018 11:56 AM


    Re: What It Means To Be A Christian
    One reason that it is difficult to discuss these beliefs with you is that you separate your personal beliefs from logic, reason, and reality and never introduce them into the discussion.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 254 by jar, posted 05-17-2018 11:56 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 257 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 4:34 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 258 of 882 (833246)
    05-18-2018 4:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 257 by jar
    05-18-2018 4:34 PM


    Re: What It Means To Be A Christian
    You have to a degree, but you never seem to embrace a living Christ---only because there is no evidence and because it is illogical and likely a marketing tool (in your mind)

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 257 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 4:34 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 259 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 4:58 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 260 of 882 (833248)
    05-18-2018 4:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 259 by jar
    05-18-2018 4:58 PM


    Re: What It Means To Be A Christian
    Why should they need to?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 259 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 4:58 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 261 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 5:05 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 262 of 882 (833272)
    05-19-2018 3:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 261 by jar
    05-18-2018 5:05 PM


    Re: What It Means To Be A Christian
    No, but if everyone that my family knew talked of such a critter and mentioned that they believed in one and sung songs honoring the smugwump and TV had people preaching smugwumpism and I heard testimonies of how the smugwump cured cancer and blessed a down and out man and once when I went forward I swore the smugwump whispered in my ear, I would have no further need to explain the critter to you.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 261 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 5:05 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 263 by Tangle, posted 05-19-2018 3:19 AM Phat has replied
     Message 266 by jar, posted 05-19-2018 6:59 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    (1)
    Message 264 of 882 (833274)
    05-19-2018 3:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 263 by Tangle
    05-19-2018 3:19 AM


    Re: What It Means To Be A Christian
    it tells me that some of us have a need to believe.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 263 by Tangle, posted 05-19-2018 3:19 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 265 by Tangle, posted 05-19-2018 3:44 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 269 by ringo, posted 05-19-2018 12:36 PM Phat has replied

      
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