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Author Topic:   Creation
Phat
Member
Posts: 11916
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 721 of 1473 (833295)
05-19-2018 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 720 by ICANT
05-19-2018 10:38 AM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
The universe was very small in the past. In fact everything in the universe was in the self-contained universe that was all in a place the size of a pea or pinpoint that began to expand. The space between each object expanded at a very rapid pace.

Everything in the universe is contained in that expanded pea sized object that is very large at the present.

Some more thoughts to ponder, at least hypothetically:

  • If everything was contained in the singularity, does that include every possible thought? Would thoughts and ideas become trapped within a black hole?
  • Was math invented or discovered? What is the difference between an invention and a discovery?

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 720 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 10:38 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 723 by NoNukes, posted 05-19-2018 11:17 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
  • NoNukes
    Inactive Member


    Message 722 of 1473 (833297)
    05-19-2018 11:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 720 by ICANT
    05-19-2018 10:38 AM


    Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
    This space could not expand at the same rate as the earlier space due to the restraints of the pressure it was under.

    This is an assumption that may not apply regardless of what your analogy says. Let's recall that an analogy is only for explaining facts as you know them. Analogies generally cannot be used reliably to prove new things because we they break down at some point.

    In this case, we have a sentence that you have just thrown in with no justification. The restraints of what pressure ICANT? Pressure results from having some force between objects, and you have not postulated any such thing.

    After a couple of minutes that 10 lbs of raisins would be spread over quite a large area. The space between each raisin would continue to expand driving the raisins further and further apart. After an hour or so there would be no raisins that was anywhere near the raisins they had been in contact with just 1 hour prior.

    In the real universe, there are forces between objects and the rate of expansion of nearby objects is small. In fact far less than 50,000 miles per second for nearby objects, which is a number you seem to have pulled out of thin air anyway.


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

    We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

    Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

    I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

    No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 720 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 10:38 AM ICANT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 728 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 12:05 PM NoNukes has responded

      
    NoNukes
    Inactive Member


    Message 723 of 1473 (833298)
    05-19-2018 11:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 721 by Phat
    05-19-2018 11:04 AM


    Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
    If everything was contained in the singularity, does that include every possible thought?

    Everything means all of the matter/energy that later became other things. So no, the singularity would not have contained thoughts.

    Was math invented or discovered? What is the difference between an invention and a discovery?

    As far as math is concerned, that is a reasonable question. But not because of your initial premise


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

    We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

    Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

    I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

    No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 721 by Phat, posted 05-19-2018 11:04 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6180
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 724 of 1473 (833301)
    05-19-2018 11:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 712 by Modulous
    05-18-2018 3:54 PM


    Re: ballooning pinpoints
    Hi Mod,

    Mod writes:

    All of space expanded.

    Except that which ended up in the galaxies.

    Mod writes:

    There was no centre to the pin point.

    But we are not talking about a pin point. We are talking about something that is the size of a pin point or pea.

    If you cut the point off a pin with a pair of side cutters you would have a relatively round object. That object would have a center just as the earth has a center.

    Mod writes:

    There was no other place for it to be.

    And just because there was no other place for all the stuff that is in the universe it had to exist in something the size of a pin point or a pea.

    What would be a mechanism that could exert that much pressure on the contents of the universe that it could reside in such a small place?

    Since it did expand, why didn't it expand sooner?
    Since it did not expand sooner, what caused it to expand when it did?

    Talk about magic.

    Mod writes:

    Yes, all material is the same age. But when we look at CMBR we are looking at light that has taken 13 billion years to get to us. What we're seeing is what it looked like 13 billion years ago.

    How do you know it took 13 billion years to get here?

    This hot little universe that expanded into our universe we have today was supper hot. I kind of get the idea that would have lit the entire universe as it expanded. Which would have been an extended light period of unknown duration. You do remember I have just such a extended light period in my creation story.

    Mod writes:

    There was no leaving the pin point.

    Are you saying the universe is still the size of the pin point sized object that contained the universe?

    Mod writes:

    Take a map of the earth - where is the centre? There is none.

    Correct for the map as it is a 2d picture. On the other hand the earth does have a center that is called the core. Just as the universe has a center.

    Do you believe the universe is like a rubber sheet?
    Do you believe the universe is like a saddle?
    Or do you believe the space of the universe expanded in all directions symmetrically, which would create a universe in the shape of a sphere.

    Mod writes:

    By everywhere I mean everywhere. All of space.

    Was that space outside of the pin sized object?
    Or was it between the objects that composed the pin sized object?

    God Bless,


    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 712 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2018 3:54 PM Modulous has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 725 by Phat, posted 05-19-2018 11:55 AM ICANT has not yet responded
     Message 734 by Modulous, posted 05-19-2018 3:08 PM ICANT has responded

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11916
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 725 of 1473 (833303)
    05-19-2018 11:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 724 by ICANT
    05-19-2018 11:36 AM


    Re: ballooning pinpoints
    A singularity has been described essentially as everything in the same place at the same time...except thoughts, according to Modulous.

    Does he mean that thoughts could hypothetically be apart from the singularity? Are not thoughts only known to originate within human minds?

    Could there hypothetically be a human outside of the singularity?(Even though by definition there is no outside)


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 724 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 11:36 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 729 by ringo, posted 05-19-2018 12:10 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 16026
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 726 of 1473 (833304)
    05-19-2018 11:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 716 by ICANT
    05-19-2018 9:27 AM


    Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
    ICANT writes:

    To me the balloon analogy explains nothing. Because the galaxies are not attached to the fabric of the universe.


    The galaxies are wrinkles in the fabric of the universe.

    ICANT writes:

    That balloon does have a center around which the exterior surface of the balloon surrounds and keeps the air inside when inflated.


    It's only the surface of the balloon that we're considering in the analogy. The surface of the balloon has no center.

    An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 716 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 9:27 AM ICANT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 727 by Phat, posted 05-19-2018 12:03 PM ringo has responded
     Message 730 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 12:18 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11916
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 727 of 1473 (833306)
    05-19-2018 12:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 726 by ringo
    05-19-2018 11:58 AM


    Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
    It's only the surface of the balloon that we're considering in the analogy. The surface of the balloon has no center.
    Thus the analogy is the rubber expansion rather than the 3rd dimension below it...right? Expansion is hard to visualize when space is expanding ...

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 726 by ringo, posted 05-19-2018 11:58 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 731 by ringo, posted 05-19-2018 12:18 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6180
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 728 of 1473 (833307)
    05-19-2018 12:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 722 by NoNukes
    05-19-2018 11:14 AM


    Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
    Hi NoNukes

    NoNukes writes:

    In this case, we have a sentence that you have just thrown in with no justification. The restraints of what pressure ICANT? Pressure results from having some force between objects, and you have not postulated any such thing.

    I think I had mentioned taking 10 lbs of raisins and compressing them into a ball the size of a pea. That would require an extreme amount of pressure on the ball of raisins.

    NoNukes writes:

    In the real universe, there are forces between objects and the rate of expansion of nearby objects is small. In fact far less than 50,000 miles per second for nearby objects, which is a number you seem to have pulled out of thin air anyway.

    It was an imaginary number. You can use any number you desire. A mile a second would scatter my raisins over a large area in a very short time.

    What are the forces you are talking about?
    How did they form under such conditions of expansion?

    Remember space is supposed to be expanding symmetrically in all direction at 41.6 miles per second.

    God Bless,


    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 722 by NoNukes, posted 05-19-2018 11:14 AM NoNukes has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 735 by NoNukes, posted 05-19-2018 6:05 PM ICANT has responded

        
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 16026
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 729 of 1473 (833308)
    05-19-2018 12:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 725 by Phat
    05-19-2018 11:55 AM


    Re: ballooning pinpoints
    Phat writes:

    A singularity has been described essentially as everything in the same place at the same time...except thoughts, according to Modulous.


    Thoughts are not things. Thoughts are arrangements of things - chemicals and electrical signals in the brain. The chemicals didn't exist at t~0.

    An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 725 by Phat, posted 05-19-2018 11:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6180
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 730 of 1473 (833309)
    05-19-2018 12:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 726 by ringo
    05-19-2018 11:58 AM


    Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
    Hi ringo,

    ringo writes:

    The galaxies are wrinkles in the fabric of the universe.

    What part of the universe?
    The outside surface of the fabric of the universe as the outside surface of the balloon?
    The inside of the surface of the fabric of the universe?

    Galaxies are observed to be scattered through out the entire universe.

    ringo writes:

    It's only the surface of the balloon that we're considering in the analogy. The surface of the balloon has no center.

    Are you saying that the universe only has a outside surface? Therefore it does not have a center.

    But there is no analogy of the 2d balloon with no air in it. When you put air in it the balloon has a center. It has height, width, and depth, making it a 3d object having a center like the earth.

    In other words the balloon analogy is one of the worst representations of the universe I have ever seen.

    God Bless,


    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 726 by ringo, posted 05-19-2018 11:58 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 732 by ringo, posted 05-19-2018 12:27 PM ICANT has responded

        
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 16026
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 731 of 1473 (833310)
    05-19-2018 12:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 727 by Phat
    05-19-2018 12:03 PM


    Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
    Phat writes:

    Thus the analogy is the rubber expansion rather than the 3rd dimension below it...right? Expansion is hard to visualize when space is expanding ...


    Yes, it is hard to visualize. The balloon is a 2D area expanding with time whereas the universe is a 3D volume expanding with time. The universe has three spatial dimensions plus the time dimension. The balloon (surface) has two spatial dimensions plus the time dimension.

    An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 727 by Phat, posted 05-19-2018 12:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 16026
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 732 of 1473 (833311)
    05-19-2018 12:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 730 by ICANT
    05-19-2018 12:18 PM


    Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
    ICANT writes:

    What part of the universe?
    The outside surface of the fabric of the universe as the outside surface of the balloon?


    Yes.

    ICANT writes:

    The inside of the surface of the fabric of the universe?

    The inside surface is not part of the analogy. Neither is the air inside the balloon. Neither is the Volkswagen passing by in the street.

    ICANT writes:

    Are you saying that the universe only has a outside surface? Therefore it does not have a center.


    Yes.

    Think of the balloon as a Klein bottle if you like. There is only one surface in the analogy.

    ICANT writes:

    But there is no analogy of the 2d balloon with no air in it. When you put air in it the balloon has a center. It has height, width, and depth, making it a 3d object having a center like the earth.


    The whole point of an analogy is to focus on the important points. When you call Jesus the Lamb of God you don't think about shearing Him or making Him into stew, do you?

    ICANT writes:

    In other words the balloon analogy is one of the worst representations of the universe I have ever seen.


    You can misunderstand anything if you try hard enough.

    An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 730 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 12:18 PM ICANT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 737 by ICANT, posted 05-20-2018 1:53 PM ringo has responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 3649
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 733 of 1473 (833314)
    05-19-2018 1:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 720 by ICANT
    05-19-2018 10:38 AM


    Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
    Regardless there would be space between the raisins. All of a sudden the space between the raisins begins to expand. The raisins on the surface would separate from the ball of raisins first as the space would expand faster at the surface than the interior of the ball.

    No. All the space, even the space between the raisins in the center of the ball, would expand at the given rate at the same time. Lets assume that there is space between each raisin. Since every point of space is expanding at the same rate (50,000 miles per second) at the end of the first second each raisin (all of them) is now 50,000 miles from each of the raisins it was nearest to a second ago. From the perspective of a raisin on the outer edge of the ball, a raisin on the opposite edge of the ball will have appeared to inflate outward at an enormously wild rate of many multiple times the 50,000 miles per second rate. These two raisins are now separated by a large multiple of the 50,000 miles even though each of the raisins was only moved along with its space by 50,000 miles. None of the raisins moved through space but was carried along with the space it was in when that space expanded.

    You assume the raisins on the outer edge move outward first. Why? The entire ball, with every raisin in it, from every point of space in it, expands at the very same rate at the very same time.

    Lets say the space is expanding at the rate of 50,000 miles per second, for our thought experiment. That would mean the raisins on the surface of the ball would be 50,000 miles from the one it was touching 1 second earlier. But that raisin would have moved as the space between it and the other raisin it was touching expanded. This space could not expand at the same rate as the earlier space due to the restraints of the pressure it was under.

    The only pressure is the pressure of each point in space expanding at the same rate at the same time. You're assuming the raisins themselves are exerting a pressure inward. Whether this is true or not has no effect on space. To make this analogy act as we believe the universal inflationary period progressed, every point in space, even the space between the raisins packed in the center of the ball, inflated at the same rate at the same time.

    After a couple of minutes that 10 lbs of raisins would be spread over quite a large area. The space between each raisin would continue to expand driving the raisins further and further apart. After an hour or so there would be no raisins that was anywhere near the raisins they had been in contact with just 1 hour prior.

    To keep your analogy on target with the universal inflationary scenario this state where no raisin is near any other raisin is achieved within the first second.

    Unless there is some other mechanism to bring these raisins together there would never be any contact between any of the raisins in the future.

    Very true.

    Now think of each raisin as a galaxy cluster where the force of gravity is powerful enough to overcome and keep the cluster from being torn apart by the expansion of space and you have pretty much the universe we inhabit today. Each raisin, each galaxy cluster, is moving away from every other cluster. Only within the galaxy cluster (40 million light years or so) is the force of gravity strong enough to hold the galaxies together. All of space is expanding (though at a much slower pace then the initial inflationary epoch) and will (we believe) continue never bringing the raisins back together again.

    But all of a sudden I look ahead and I got one mean ugly raisin that is headed toward me and we are going to collide. That tells me the space between us is not expanding but decreasing which tell me there is something wrong with my thought experiment or the real thing of expansion.

    I am referring to Andromeda and its collision with the Milky Way.

    If they started in the same place and the space expanded between every object the collision could not take place.

    No. The Andromeda galaxy is one of the 50+ galaxies within our local galactic raisin. Within our raisin the force of gravity, given the closeness of these 50+ galaxies, is still strong enough to overcome the expansion of space and keep our local group from separating along with the expansion.

    Get this one. Each point of space within your head is also expanding, albeit on such a small scale it's not by very much, but the electromagnetic force and the two nuclear forces are way stronger at these small scales than the expansion so that is why your head doesn't explode.

    If the galaxies were on the exterior of the universe as the dots on the balloon they would be at the center of the surface of the exterior of the universe relative to all the other galaxies on the surface of the universe.

    The problem is that the galaxies are not on the surface of the universe. They are in the universe as they are apart of the universe. They are scattered throughout the universe just as my raisins were scattered relative to the location of the ball of raisins when it started to expand.

    Yea, that is Hard Part #2: Overcoming the reality of the mechanism to get to the instructive symbol. When going from the 2D analogy and trying to apply the lessons learned to 3D space you have to give up thinking about the balloon analogy's surface but still bring the idea of the expanding space and it effects on what is seen.

    Keep noodling on it. Maybe it will come to you.

    Edited by AZPaul3, : clearer, I hope.

    Edited by AZPaul3, : More cleariating stuff.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 720 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 10:38 AM ICANT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 736 by ICANT, posted 05-20-2018 10:42 AM AZPaul3 has responded
     Message 742 by ICANT, posted 05-20-2018 5:43 PM AZPaul3 has responded

      
    Modulous
    Member (Idle past 122 days)
    Posts: 7789
    From: Manchester, UK
    Joined: 05-01-2005


    Message 734 of 1473 (833315)
    05-19-2018 3:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 724 by ICANT
    05-19-2018 11:36 AM


    Re: ballooning pinpoints
    Except that which ended up in the galaxies.

    Nope, that expanded, and continues to expand. The space between you and your keyboard is expanding too. It's all expanding.

    If you cut the point off a pin with a pair of side cutters you would have a relatively round object. That object would have a center just as the earth has a center.

    Correct. But that's not how the universe is.

    And just because there was no other place for all the stuff that is in the universe it had to exist in something the size of a pin point or a pea.

    What would be a mechanism that could exert that much pressure on the contents of the universe that it could reside in such a small place?

    There is nowhere else for it to go.

    Since it did expand, why didn't it expand sooner?

    It expanded immediately. You can't get sooner than that.

    How do you know it took 13 billion years to get here?

    Observations and mathematics.

    Are you saying the universe is still the size of the pin point sized object that contained the universe?

    I'm saying the pinpoint was the entire universe, which we have not left.

    Correct for the map as it is a 2d picture.

    Almost correct. It's not because it is a 2D picture. There is a centre to any given rectangular picture. The reason there is no centre is because it actually curves around on itself. When you get to the place that is furthest away, where you started is now the new furthest away. Agreed?

    And if you reduce the size of the surface of the earth - the distances become less - but there is still no centre, correct? If you reduce it so that the furthest distance away is 1cm - there is still no centre, right?

    Was that space outside of the pin sized object?

    There was no space outside the pin sized object. The pin sized object (which is not actually an object, by the way) was all of space - all of it. Every single bit of space in the entire universe. And all of that space expanded. All of it. Every single bit of space in the entire pin sized universe expanded.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 724 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 11:36 AM ICANT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 739 by ICANT, posted 05-20-2018 3:21 PM Modulous has responded

      
    NoNukes
    Inactive Member


    Message 735 of 1473 (833321)
    05-19-2018 6:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 728 by ICANT
    05-19-2018 12:05 PM


    Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
    think I had mentioned taking 10 lbs of raisins and compressing them into a ball the size of a pea. That would require an extreme amount of pressure on theball of raisins

    In what way is space or the universe like that, ICANT? Was the original singularity made of compressed matter?

    It was an imaginary number. You can use any number you desire. A mile a second would scatter my raisins over a large area in a very short time.

    Fine, then let's use my number of 70km/sec per megaparsec of separation. Using that rate, how long would it take for things that are 10 ^-10 meters apart to separate appreciably?

    My point is that you cannot make up stuff in an analogy and then claim that it represents something real. Your raisin analogy is worthless.

    Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

    Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

    We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

    Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

    I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

    No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 728 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 12:05 PM ICANT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 738 by ICANT, posted 05-20-2018 2:16 PM NoNukes has responded

      
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