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Author Topic:   Creation
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 718 of 1482 (833288)
05-19-2018 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 712 by Modulous
05-18-2018 3:54 PM


Re: ballooning pinpoints
I just read an interesting article in Forbes, If The Universe Is Expanding, Then Why Aren't We? Synopsis:
...The best answer to these questions is, as usual, a lot of math. But it’s hard to find a decent answer online that is not a pile of equations, so here’s a conceptual take on it.(...)
in science a question must be answerable by measurement, at least in principle. We cannot observe space and neither can we observe space-time. We merely observe how space-time affects matter and radiation, which we can measure in our detectors.(...)Just as you could insist on defining space so that the universe doesn’t expand, by willpower you could also define space so that a city, like Brooklyn, does expand. Let’s say a block down is a mile. You could simply insist on using units of length in which tomorrow a block down is two miles, and next week it’s ten miles, and so on. That’s pretty idiotic — and yet nobody could stop you from doing this.
But now, consider that you make a measurement. Say, you bounce a laser-beam back between the ends of the block, at fixed altitude, and use atomic clocks to measure the time that passes between two bounces. You would find that the time-intervals are always the same.
My question is whether there would be a way to hypothetically verify the redshift within a singularity.(or am I stupified by the explanation?)
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 712 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2018 3:54 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 719 by Modulous, posted 05-19-2018 10:35 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 721 of 1482 (833295)
05-19-2018 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 720 by ICANT
05-19-2018 10:38 AM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
The universe was very small in the past. In fact everything in the universe was in the self-contained universe that was all in a place the size of a pea or pinpoint that began to expand. The space between each object expanded at a very rapid pace.
Everything in the universe is contained in that expanded pea sized object that is very large at the present.
Some more thoughts to ponder, at least hypothetically:
  • If everything was contained in the singularity, does that include every possible thought? Would thoughts and ideas become trapped within a black hole?
  • Was math invented or discovered? What is the difference between an invention and a discovery?
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 720 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 10:38 AM ICANT has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 723 by NoNukes, posted 05-19-2018 11:17 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 725 of 1482 (833303)
    05-19-2018 11:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 724 by ICANT
    05-19-2018 11:36 AM


    Re: ballooning pinpoints
    A singularity has been described essentially as everything in the same place at the same time...except thoughts, according to Modulous.
    Does he mean that thoughts could hypothetically be apart from the singularity? Are not thoughts only known to originate within human minds?
    Could there hypothetically be a human outside of the singularity?(Even though by definition there is no outside)

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 724 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 11:36 AM ICANT has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 729 by ringo, posted 05-19-2018 12:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 727 of 1482 (833306)
    05-19-2018 12:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 726 by ringo
    05-19-2018 11:58 AM


    Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
    It's only the surface of the balloon that we're considering in the analogy. The surface of the balloon has no center.
    Thus the analogy is the rubber expansion rather than the 3rd dimension below it...right? Expansion is hard to visualize when space is expanding ...

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 726 by ringo, posted 05-19-2018 11:58 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 731 by ringo, posted 05-19-2018 12:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 792 of 1482 (833600)
    05-24-2018 9:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 787 by ICANT
    05-24-2018 3:03 AM


    Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
    These are interesting discussions and I will briefly contribute some food for thought.
  • Where was the speed of light before the distance 186,000 miles even existed?
    How did the maths break down in the early singularity?
  • Were laws discovered by humanity through testing or were they invented by humanity?
    Does the concept of a singularity actually represent the origin of creation? In other words, without humanity, would math actually mean anything? would distance? would matter? would words themselves and definitions themselves?
    If the answer is yes does this not mean that laws can exist without our need to define them? And if so, why is it considered silly to believe in God without evidence?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 787 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2018 3:03 AM ICANT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 798 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2018 3:23 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 799 by Modulous, posted 05-24-2018 4:17 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    (1)
    Message 814 of 1482 (833694)
    05-25-2018 1:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 812 by DrJones*
    05-25-2018 12:58 PM


    Re: Difference in 2D &3D objects
    yet he will. The universe exists in 3 dimensions. I CANT believes that it was designed by the Great Architect. Thus, he cannot understand how you can be talking about a blueprint and declare that there is no such thing as a 3D video along with it. He would argue that we can observe the 3 dimensions now...and cannot understand that at one time it was all a 2-dimensional blueprint that had nothing to do with describing a 3-dimensional reality.
    I don't think he is being obstructionist. He imagines/believes in creation through the mind of another. You are asking him to imagine it as your mind understands it.
    He insists that you consider that reality is not a product of your own or any other human imagination, but rather through the eyes of a "Great Architect". Thus the point of contention.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 812 by DrJones*, posted 05-25-2018 12:58 PM DrJones* has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 815 by DrJones*, posted 05-25-2018 1:39 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 822 by ringo, posted 05-25-2018 6:06 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 880 of 1482 (834362)
    06-04-2018 7:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 879 by Modulous
    06-03-2018 5:26 PM


    Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
    This video explains the vast distances better:

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 879 by Modulous, posted 06-03-2018 5:26 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1053 of 1482 (841417)
    10-12-2018 4:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 1052 by ringo
    10-12-2018 12:10 PM


    Re: Creation
    I'm guessing that he will refer to the "day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day" scrip.
    Scripture does not give us any better of a roadmap than science does....it just provides us a better driver (oops...I mean envelope )
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1052 by ringo, posted 10-12-2018 12:10 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1054 by ringo, posted 10-12-2018 4:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 1059 by ICANT, posted 10-13-2018 4:49 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1232 of 1482 (843584)
    11-19-2018 2:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 1230 by creation
    11-19-2018 1:59 PM


    Re: Creation
    What makes your stubborn insistence on your belief any more of a sure thing than ringos "hunches"? He has evidence on his side whereas you are simply betting on belief and an inerrant Bible. Granted your argument presupposes that things were different in earlier times where he sees no reason to assume this.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1230 by creation, posted 11-19-2018 1:59 PM creation has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1239 by creation, posted 11-20-2018 1:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1262 of 1482 (844188)
    11-26-2018 1:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 1261 by creation
    11-26-2018 1:27 PM


    Re: Creation
    I have no reason to doubt that in the beginning, a large land mass existed that later broke apart.
    The question is, why do you avoid the evidence that mainstream science offers as an explanation? Why rely on faith in an inerrant Bible and "living Word" while fighting the scientific approach to evidence?
    If you claim to be a creationist, you surely need a solid relationship with a Creator...not simply a connection with "other creationists"....
    Do you feel as if you have one? If so, do you imagine Him proud that you are fighting the scientists and evolutionists?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1261 by creation, posted 11-26-2018 1:27 PM creation has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1263 by ICANT, posted 11-27-2018 12:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 1265 by creation, posted 11-27-2018 2:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1284 of 1482 (844541)
    12-01-2018 2:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 1283 by creation
    12-01-2018 2:22 PM


    Re: Creation
    You have not addressed the reasoning whereby we should seriously consider any other process. Do you have anything apart from belief?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1283 by creation, posted 12-01-2018 2:22 PM creation has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1285 by ICANT, posted 12-01-2018 7:36 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1292 of 1482 (844602)
    12-02-2018 4:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 1290 by ICANT
    12-02-2018 4:33 PM


    Re: Creation
    Just a quick question on your book---and keep in mind that I am a believer in God known through Jesus Christ whom I accepted into my heart in 1993.
    You say to ringo:
    I CANT writes:
    If you have any scientific evidence that is not based on an assumption would you please present it and give me permission to use it in my book on creation?
    He will likely claim that your beliefs are themselves an assertion and have no fact to back them up...in the sense of an objective, verifiable and replicable fact. I know your arguments...they make more sense than Faiths do...but your whole thing about owning guns and the right to bear arms takes credibility away from your otherwise sound and heartfelt beliefs regarding our Creator. I respect your age and your experience, though I fear that many church folks only hear (and only choose to listen) to like-minded beliefs and have no familiarity with the disciplines of the educated minds within secular science.
    So my question: Do you believe that secular science and scientists are in any way deceived if they are not believers in Jesus Christ and/or the Bible?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1290 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2018 4:33 PM ICANT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1300 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2018 10:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1295 of 1482 (844606)
    12-02-2018 4:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 1293 by ringo
    12-02-2018 4:50 PM


    Re: Creation
    We do have evidence about the origin of the universe. It doesn't point to any Creator.
    Actually it does. You trust your own rationality and preassumptions. Granted you use evidence when available.
    Assumptions are based on scientific evidence.
    Which is why you don't believe. The jury is still out on preponderance of evidence regarding a Creator or not. I don't see them having certainty beyond a reasonable doubt. Looks like a hung jury to me. Like i said before, at best we are both in the same boat. We don't know.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1293 by ringo, posted 12-02-2018 4:50 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1296 by ringo, posted 12-02-2018 5:03 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1297 of 1482 (844610)
    12-02-2018 5:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 1296 by ringo
    12-02-2018 5:03 PM


    Evidence?
    How is that possible when you yourself claim that the creator is invisible?
    Because the "creator" that you point to is your own conclusions. I am the same way. As I said, we are in the same boat.
    And we're talking about evidence.
    As I have said before, an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If we don't get the default assumption, neither do you.
    There is no evidence for a creator - and by your own ideas about your creator, there can never be any.
    I'll give you that...up to this point in time. We can never know what there may or may not be at a future point. Besides...there is no evidence for Loki or a spaghetti monster. Can there ever be any? I don't know and neither do you. You have your ideas and I have mine.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1296 by ringo, posted 12-02-2018 5:03 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1298 by ringo, posted 12-02-2018 5:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1342 of 1482 (844925)
    12-08-2018 10:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 1341 by ringo
    12-08-2018 10:44 AM


    Re: Evidence?
    ringo, to ICANT writes:
    There is no such thing as a "spiritual manifestation" and your god doesn't exist either. Whether you believe in Him or not does not make any difference.
    You have no place to make absolute statements which you cannot prove. Perhaps it makes no difference what we believe in the grand scheme of things. I have experienced spiritual manifestations, so it means your definition has to be different for your statement to be true. Evidence does not define reality. Your absolute belief in such a definition is quite simply WRONG...at least for many of us. If your name was ringo Webster, you would have to rewrite your dictionary.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1341 by ringo, posted 12-08-2018 10:44 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1344 by ringo, posted 12-08-2018 11:17 AM Phat has not replied

      
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