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Author Topic:   Creation
ringo
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 645 of 1482 (830646)
04-04-2018 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 640 by ICANT
04-04-2018 11:31 AM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:
If time travels in only one direction there has to be forward direction as time can not go backwards.
Time doesn't "travel", literally. It has no "direction", literally.
ICANT writes:
What picture are you referring too.
The ones we've been talking about, the ones you referred to in Message 614, the one that Tanypteryx posted in Message 631 and you agreed in Message 634, "Yep that is the one."
ICANT writes:
If "forward direction" is meaningless, why is it that quite often we have:
_______________________________________________> arrow of time?
That just means that time can't be "rewound". What has happened can not un-happen.
ICANT writes:
You are the one that does not understand what the artist has presented.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by ICANT, posted 04-04-2018 11:31 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 649 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 4:49 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 655 of 1482 (830787)
04-07-2018 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by ICANT
04-06-2018 4:49 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:
ringo writes:
Time doesn't "travel", literally. It has no "direction", literally.
Then why did you say in Message 626
quote:
That is what the pictures are meant to show. What you see as a "forward direction" is time.
I said, or tried to say, that what you were seeing as a direction is in fact a dimension, the fourth dimension, time. Granted, it is difficult to portray and/or visualize four dimensions in a two-dimensional drawing, which is why people are trying to explain it to you. But it seems that you're not only misunderstanding the drawing; you're trying to deny the science behind it.
ICANT writes:
Time can be rewound. Time is a concept invented by mankind to to measure duration between events in eternity. Time is not a dimension.
You can measure length, height, and width which are dimensions.
How do you measure time if it is a dimension?
Ever hear of a clock? Ever see a clock go backwards?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 4:49 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 657 by ICANT, posted 04-25-2018 3:11 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 659 of 1482 (831865)
04-25-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 657 by ICANT
04-25-2018 3:11 AM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:
I don't have any problem with drawing a 3d picture as I drew thousands of cabinets in 3d.
You seem to have a problem reading. I said, "It is difficult to portray and/or visualize four dimensions in a two-dimensional drawing."
ICANT writes:
Could you explain to me how it would be possible to put another dimension in those 3 dimensions?
Modulous' video explains it pretty well.
ICANT writes:
The drawing depicts the universe as a tube that has two dimensions.
No. It doesn't. It depicts the universe as a sphere expanding at varying rates over time.
ICANT writes:
What science are you talking about?
The science behind the Big Bang.
ICANT writes:
I have never had a problem turning my watch back an hour in the fall.
But you're not turning back time.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by ICANT, posted 04-25-2018 3:11 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 663 of 1482 (831989)
04-28-2018 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 662 by NoNukes
04-27-2018 2:17 PM


Re: Bible
NoNukes writes:
Perhaps a little empathy is in order?
We should all remember how dopey we were in sixth grade?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by NoNukes, posted 04-27-2018 2:17 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 667 by NoNukes, posted 04-29-2018 7:37 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 726 of 1482 (833304)
05-19-2018 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 716 by ICANT
05-19-2018 9:27 AM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
ICANT writes:
To me the balloon analogy explains nothing. Because the galaxies are not attached to the fabric of the universe.
The galaxies are wrinkles in the fabric of the universe.
ICANT writes:
That balloon does have a center around which the exterior surface of the balloon surrounds and keeps the air inside when inflated.
It's only the surface of the balloon that we're considering in the analogy. The surface of the balloon has no center.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 716 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 9:27 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 727 by Phat, posted 05-19-2018 12:03 PM ringo has replied
 Message 730 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 12:18 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 729 of 1482 (833308)
05-19-2018 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 725 by Phat
05-19-2018 11:55 AM


Re: ballooning pinpoints
Phat writes:
A singularity has been described essentially as everything in the same place at the same time...except thoughts, according to Modulous.
Thoughts are not things. Thoughts are arrangements of things - chemicals and electrical signals in the brain. The chemicals didn't exist at t~0.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 725 by Phat, posted 05-19-2018 11:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 731 of 1482 (833310)
05-19-2018 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 727 by Phat
05-19-2018 12:03 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
Phat writes:
Thus the analogy is the rubber expansion rather than the 3rd dimension below it...right? Expansion is hard to visualize when space is expanding ...
Yes, it is hard to visualize. The balloon is a 2D area expanding with time whereas the universe is a 3D volume expanding with time. The universe has three spatial dimensions plus the time dimension. The balloon (surface) has two spatial dimensions plus the time dimension.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 727 by Phat, posted 05-19-2018 12:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 732 of 1482 (833311)
05-19-2018 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 730 by ICANT
05-19-2018 12:18 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
ICANT writes:
What part of the universe?
The outside surface of the fabric of the universe as the outside surface of the balloon?
Yes.
ICANT writes:
The inside of the surface of the fabric of the universe?
The inside surface is not part of the analogy. Neither is the air inside the balloon. Neither is the Volkswagen passing by in the street.
ICANT writes:
Are you saying that the universe only has a outside surface? Therefore it does not have a center.
Yes.
Think of the balloon as a Klein bottle if you like. There is only one surface in the analogy.
ICANT writes:
But there is no analogy of the 2d balloon with no air in it. When you put air in it the balloon has a center. It has height, width, and depth, making it a 3d object having a center like the earth.
The whole point of an analogy is to focus on the important points. When you call Jesus the Lamb of God you don't think about shearing Him or making Him into stew, do you?
ICANT writes:
In other words the balloon analogy is one of the worst representations of the universe I have ever seen.
You can misunderstand anything if you try hard enough.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 730 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 12:18 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 737 by ICANT, posted 05-20-2018 1:53 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 749 of 1482 (833499)
05-22-2018 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 737 by ICANT
05-20-2018 1:53 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
ICANT writes:
So the galaxies are wrinkles in the outside of the fabric of the universe.
How is that possible when there is no outside of the universe?
Your questions was "as the outside surface of the balloon". In the analogy, galaxies are "wrinkles" on the outside surface of the balloon, represented by dots.
ICANT writes:
So the galaxies are not wrinkles on the inside surface of the fabric of the universe.
In the analogy, there is no "inside surface". The outside surface of the balloon represents ALL of the universe.
ICANT writes:
But the air in the balloon and the balloon as well as the Volkswagen passing by on the street are on the inside of the universe.
No they are not. The outside surface of the balloon represents ALL of the universe.
ICANT writes:
So according to ringo the outside of the universe has a surface.
No. The outside of the balloon is a surface. The balloon is not the universe. It only represents the universe. Do you understand the difference between a picture and the thing it represents?
ICANT writes:
Jesus is referred to the Lamb of God because He was offered as a sacrifice for you and everybody else to restore each to a right relationship with God.
Before His sacrifice lambs were offered on the altar of sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.
Yes. And you didn't mention Jesus' wool or His meat, did you? Why not? because they are not part of the analogy. Similarly, the inside of the balloon is not part of the analogy.
ICANT writes:
I just take Ask an Astronomer in the Astronomy Department at Cornell University's word for it. They say: "it should be banished forever into the dustbin of history because it's the source of so much confusion".
If you cherry-pick your answers, you can find one you like. Ask another astronomer such as this one, if you're at all honest about understanding.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 737 by ICANT, posted 05-20-2018 1:53 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 758 by ICANT, posted 05-22-2018 5:24 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 785 of 1482 (833581)
05-23-2018 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 758 by ICANT
05-22-2018 5:24 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
ICANT writes:
That does not represent reality so the analogy is useless.
No analogy is a perfect representation of reality. We use analogies to explain isolated aspects of reality.
A hammer is also useless if you don't know how to use it.
ICANT writes:
Reality is that the universe does not have an outside.
You almost have an inkling. The balloon is a good analogy because it's surface has no boundaries, just like the universe has no boundaries.
ICANT writes:
The outside surface of the balloon does not represent any part of the universe that you can see or imagine.
Speak for yourself. I and millions of other people can imagine the surface of the balloon as it represents the universe. Don't project your own lack of imagination and/or understanding on everybody else.
ICANT writes:
I understand that creature looks exactly like the picture and can physically hurt my body.
Wrong again. The picture is a 2D representation of a 3D object.
ICANT writes:
A balloon with dots on it does not look like the universe in any way shape or form, except it is maybe a sphere.
Again, we are only looking at the surface of the balloon - and we are not specifying that it is a spherical balloon. The surface of the balloon in 2D represents the universe in 3D, just like the picture in 2D represents the shark in 3D.
ICANT writes:
But He was a human lamb....
There's no such thing as a human lamb. Jesus was analogous to a lamb only as a sacrifice. We ignore all of the other aspects of a lamb just like we ignore all of the other aspects of the balloon.
ICANT writes:
Where can I find a reference to the balloon analogy on that website?
Use the "Find" function on your browser.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 758 by ICANT, posted 05-22-2018 5:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 787 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2018 3:03 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 786 of 1482 (833583)
05-23-2018 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 766 by ICANT
05-22-2018 7:34 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
ICANT writes:
Haven't you figured out by now that I am super old earth and super old universe?
Those of us who accept science can't be expected to remember every detail of every science-denier's denial.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by ICANT, posted 05-22-2018 7:34 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 793 of 1482 (833622)
05-24-2018 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 787 by ICANT
05-24-2018 3:03 AM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
ICANT writes:
If you don't think the balloon has boundaries just keep putting air into it.
The surface of the balloon has no boundaries. You can draw a continuous line in any direction on the surface of the balloon for thousands of miles and never cross a boundary.
ICANT writes:
But the picture has width, height, and depth.
A picture does not have depth.
ICANT writes:
God that came to earth and was sacrificed on the cross at Calvary to restore mankind to a right relationship with God. In the old testament a for legged sacrifice was used for the same purpose.
So you understand that when we use a lamb to represent Jesus, we're not talking about wool. Now try to understand that when we use a balloon to represent the universe, we're not talking about air.
ICANT writes:
Why should I have to look up other peoples source? That is against site policy.
The site policy is to cite a reference, which I did. I am not required to spoon-feed the material to you.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2018 3:03 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 795 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2018 1:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 821 of 1482 (833721)
05-25-2018 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 795 by ICANT
05-24-2018 1:26 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
ICANT writes:
If the paper is 11 x 8.5 x .004 the center is located at 5.5 x 4.25 x .002 So yes the picture does have depth just not much.
That's the thickness of the paper, not the depth of the picture. The picture has no depth.
ICANT writes:
The air and the inside surface of the balloon is all about the balloon that resembles the universe.
Nope. That isn't part of the analogy at all.
ICANT writes:
But in the meanwhile I will tell you that you can not tell me what is outside of the universe.
I haven't said anything about the "outside of the universe". The outside of the balloon represents the whole universe. The surface of the balloon has no boundaries and the universe has no boundaries.
ICANT writes:
Where is the material you referenced. You cited a bare link.
In Message 737 you made a claim that an unnamed astronomer doesn't like the balloon analogy. I gave you a link to an astronomer who does like the balloon analogy. You're in no position to be holding up the forum rules to me. At the very least, you need to provide a link to your astronomer before you get holier-than-me.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 795 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2018 1:26 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 837 by ICANT, posted 05-26-2018 12:11 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 822 of 1482 (833722)
05-25-2018 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 814 by Phat
05-25-2018 1:15 PM


Re: Difference in 2D &3D objects
Phat writes:
He insists that you consider that reality is not a product of your own or any other human imagination, but rather through the eyes of a "Great Architect".
That excuse only works if the "Great Architect" has His own mathematics that's completely different from ours.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 814 by Phat, posted 05-25-2018 1:15 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 847 of 1482 (833767)
05-26-2018 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 837 by ICANT
05-26-2018 12:11 AM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
ICANT writes:
This is my last post on the balloon analogy to anyone period.
So you're not here to try to understand?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 837 by ICANT, posted 05-26-2018 12:11 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 854 by ICANT, posted 05-26-2018 3:40 PM ringo has replied

  
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