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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 361 of 882 (833534)
05-22-2018 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by GDR
05-22-2018 8:51 PM


Re: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics
GDR writes:
C'mon jar, everyone knows that she is simply her beliefs.
That does not change reality.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by GDR, posted 05-22-2018 8:51 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by GDR, posted 05-22-2018 9:29 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 362 of 882 (833536)
05-22-2018 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by jar
05-22-2018 9:06 PM


Re: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics
It doesn't however constitute a lie.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by jar, posted 05-22-2018 9:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by jar, posted 05-22-2018 10:04 PM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 363 of 882 (833538)
05-22-2018 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by GDR
05-22-2018 9:29 PM


Re: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics
I'm sorry but there I most definitely disagree.
Repeating falsehoods, even if you believe them true, does constitute lying.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by GDR, posted 05-22-2018 9:29 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by GDR, posted 05-22-2018 10:26 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 364 of 882 (833539)
05-22-2018 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by jar
05-22-2018 10:04 PM


Re: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics
jar writes:
Repeating falsehoods, even if you believe them true, does constitute lying.
No. Here is the Oxford definition.
quote:
to say or write something that you know is not true

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by jar, posted 05-22-2018 10:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-23-2018 12:30 AM GDR has replied
 Message 370 by PaulK, posted 05-23-2018 4:44 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 372 by jar, posted 05-23-2018 8:49 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 406 by Faith, posted 05-24-2018 11:25 AM GDR has not replied

  
Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 455 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


(2)
Message 365 of 882 (833543)
05-23-2018 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by GDR
05-22-2018 10:26 PM


Re: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics
Why is it that religious people are so quick to reach for the dictionary and so slow to use their moral sense?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by GDR, posted 05-22-2018 10:26 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-23-2018 12:34 AM Capt Stormfield has not replied
 Message 368 by Phat, posted 05-23-2018 1:43 AM Capt Stormfield has not replied
 Message 369 by GDR, posted 05-23-2018 2:04 AM Capt Stormfield has not replied
 Message 373 by jar, posted 05-23-2018 8:52 AM Capt Stormfield has not replied

  
Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 455 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 366 of 882 (833544)
05-23-2018 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by Capt Stormfield
05-23-2018 12:30 AM


Re: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics
To clarify, the word "know'' is a minefield. From the outside, the willful compartmentalization of knowledge in the religious is transparently obvious, and an obvious lie, with the religious themselves being the primary target of their own lies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-23-2018 12:30 AM Capt Stormfield has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 367 of 882 (833545)
05-23-2018 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by Phat
05-21-2018 4:22 PM


Re: Moral problems of Christianity today.
quote:
Perhaps the peanut gallery can throw their shells in that direction.
Faith Facts:

Unsurprisingly it is not good. Faith will, of course accuse me of prejudice but the facts speak for themselves.
Most of the citations are Bible verses with no indication that they played a role in the Founder’s thinking.
I looked at the sole exception:
It claimed that Judicial, legislative, and executive branches was based on Isaiah 33:22 claiming to cite Madison.
Isaiah 33:22 says:
(For the Lord is our Judge,
The Lord is our Lawgiver,
The Lord is our King;
He will save us);
I will note that this doesn’t appear to have any separation of powers, and that England already had a King, a Parliament (a two-chamber Parliament at that) and a judiciary. The role of the Bible seems somewhat superfluous.
The citation is worse. It refers to a website which offers as it’s only source the Wallbuilder’s website. Which is of course David Barton’s organisation.
Citing a source that quotes only an unreliable secondary source is hardly good scholarship.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by Phat, posted 05-21-2018 4:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 368 of 882 (833547)
05-23-2018 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by Capt Stormfield
05-23-2018 12:30 AM


Re: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics
ive never seen evidence that religious people are slower than any other regarding moral actions. (nor any faster, to be fair)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 369 of 882 (833548)
05-23-2018 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by Capt Stormfield
05-23-2018 12:30 AM


Re: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics
Capt Stormfield writes:
Why is it that religious people are so quick to reach for the dictionary and so slow to use their moral sense?
So you criticize things you don't be;ieve are true and call them lies and then you complain when you're proven wrong with facts.
Just what do you know about my moral sense?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-23-2018 12:30 AM Capt Stormfield has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 370 of 882 (833549)
05-23-2018 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by GDR
05-22-2018 10:26 PM


Re: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics
Here is one of the dictionary.com definitions
to express what is false; convey a false impression.
dictionary.com also allows that:
an inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood.
may be considered a lie.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by GDR, posted 05-22-2018 10:26 PM GDR has not replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1765 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


(1)
Message 371 of 882 (833550)
05-23-2018 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by NoNukes
05-21-2018 12:03 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
NoNukes writes:
I noted your concession about not having proved your position. But since you did not drop your position, asking for you to make a case seems appropriate. Are you instead conceding that you were wrong?
That’s why I asked you to quote my own words, because if what I wrote looks like I’m conceding that, then I need to correct it.
I am not conceding anything. If I understood you, is people that is responsible for doing the wrong things and Religion, or any other world view for that matter, are not to blame at all. If that is what you mean, my position is not diametrically opposed to yours. I partially agree. I agree only to the extent that people ultimately are responsible for what they do. But the part where I don’t agree with you is that I do see Religion as having an influence in how people think and what they do. When this influence is negative, is when I give Religion its share of the blame for it.
For example someone killing an homosexual cannot get away by saying that he is doing God’s will. He is liable regardless of his religious views. But in this case, a religion has been influential in the way this person sees homosexuals as sinners against God.
Consider an example less extreme: Marriage equality. I live in Australia. Here, same sex marriage only became legal at the end of last year (it is a shame Australia lagged so much in this). There was a plebiscite were we were asked to say yes or no to change Marriage Law to include same sex couples. Around 65% of the population voted yes. In the days leading up to the plebiscite the Christian lobby put forth their campaign to convince people to say no using bullshit arguments like this would affect families because children needed to have both male and female role models and whatnot. Incidentally, all my Christian friends would share the no campaign through social media.
If it was not because of Religion, I couldn’t think of a reason why someone would want to oppose two consenting adults to marry and do whatever they like with their lives. I doubt you can come up with a non-religious inspired reason, but even if you do, whatever it could be, be assured it wouldn’t have exerted such a powerful influence for an otherwise progressive country to wait to legalise same sex marriage until 2017.
It was not too long ago that I was still a Christian. I never saw anything wrong about homosexuality and it always made me very uncomfortable that the Bible could have such a negative view about it, being inspired supposedly by an all loving perfect being. Despite this, I used to be against same sex marriage because I thought it was God’s will and although I didn’t understand why, there had to be a good reason. If the plebiscite had been back then, I would’ve voted no against my will, being entirely and negatively influenced by Religion. This was not only my case; there are lots of people who follow negative religious dogmas even if they don’t like them, just because their religion says so. I also had quoted in another post Faith’s position regarding women’s role to illustrate the point. It doesn’t make me proud at all to recognise how bad Religion influenced me, but It is a good example to illustrate my position.
By the time the plebiscite took place I was already an atheist. I felt an enormous relief that I didn’t have to ask an ancient book anymore how to think but I was able to decide by myself what is right and what is wrong. I was proud to vote yes and to see the marriage law change to become more inclusive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by NoNukes, posted 05-21-2018 12:03 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by NoNukes, posted 05-23-2018 5:38 PM Paboss has replied
 Message 389 by Faith, posted 05-24-2018 3:44 AM Paboss has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 372 of 882 (833552)
05-23-2018 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by GDR
05-22-2018 10:26 PM


Re: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics
Fortunately, dictionaries are not authoritative and include multiple definitions plus they evolve as usages change.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by GDR, posted 05-22-2018 10:26 PM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 373 of 882 (833553)
05-23-2018 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by Capt Stormfield
05-23-2018 12:30 AM


Re: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics
They often shop dictionaries until they find one that agrees with their desired outcome.
Just like they do with quotes from the Bible.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-23-2018 12:30 AM Capt Stormfield has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by GDR, posted 05-23-2018 5:27 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 374 of 882 (833559)
05-23-2018 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by jar
05-23-2018 8:52 AM


Re: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics
jar writes:
They often shop dictionaries until they find one that agrees with their desired outcome.
Just like they do with quotes from the Bible.
If you want to believe that there is no difference between being wrong when you believe that you are right and being wrong when you know that you are wrong then so be it. Lying however, requires intentionality .
As for your other comments it is typical of your method of debate to use put downs, disparaging remarks, insults and name calling such as liar.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by jar, posted 05-23-2018 8:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by jar, posted 05-23-2018 5:56 PM GDR has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 375 of 882 (833560)
05-23-2018 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by Paboss
05-23-2018 5:17 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
My question about you conceding was rhetorical. I know you did not concede. That's why after acknowledging that you had made a bad argument, I asked for a different one.
For example someone killing an homosexual cannot get away by saying that he is doing God’s will. He is liable regardless of his religious views. But in this case, a religion has been influential in the way this person sees homosexuals as sinners against God.
Have you ever noticed that there are bigots with or without religion? Religion is just an excuse. I don't believe Christianity requires or demands that I treat homosexuals different from the way I tread anyone else.
Yes, people did use the Bible to justify things like slavery, but did not slavery exist in cultures that were not Christian or Jewish at all? I simply don't buy the idea that religion, and in particular, Christianity, is even largely responsible for those problems.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Paboss, posted 05-23-2018 5:17 AM Paboss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by Paboss, posted 06-01-2018 7:49 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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