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Author Topic:   The spectacular fall of YEC beliefs
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4617
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 181 of 185 (833749)
05-26-2018 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
05-13-2018 5:55 PM


Well, like with all statistical arguments it depends where the focus is doesn't it Modulous?

It seems to me you are basically representing creationism as, "YEC", but it seems you allude to the fact you would included IDists as creationists, and so it is reasonable that creationism as a whole, according to evolutionists, is YEC/OEC/ID.

(You can't have your cake as an ornament, and also eat it.)

So then the real question is, "what do the statistics mean?" For example you said educating people tends to lead to less YECs according to the statistics. I would ask, "what is the significance of that?"

For example as you have already noted, they won't allow any kind of creationism in schools, so they are only teaching evolution. So it seems to me the statistics could just as easily support the notion that it is easy to brainwash students by only telling them one side of a story. Confronted by all of that, "science" what can most young brains do other than to say, "wow it must be true", if they are not exposed to a critical analysis of all of those evolutionary views?

I think it's almost tautologous that as a society rejects Christianity and creation more and more that it will lead to less and less Christianity and creation within that society.

Big deal, that doesn't affect my faith as an individual, and it isn't going to make me believe 200 identical genes for echolocation in bats and whales, could come about separately, or that eyes can create and design themselves independently, or that abiogenesised blobs can later give rise to Elvis Presley and Diana Ross.

So these are the generalities. Sure you can claim a, "victory" when you have 15 tanks, 200 rifles and 400 explosives and I only have a bow and arrow. But really you are arguing your victory, your win, as something pertaining to society, obtusely forgetting that our society is not worldly. Numbers aren't our goal and the true victory is already won on the cross.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 05-13-2018 5:55 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Modulous, posted 05-26-2018 10:06 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 182 of 185 (833758)
05-26-2018 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by mike the wiz
05-26-2018 7:46 AM


It seems to me you are basically representing creationism as, "YEC", but it seems you allude to the fact you would included IDists as creationists, and so it is reasonable that creationism as a whole, according to evolutionists, is YEC/OEC/ID.

(You can't have your cake as an ornament, and also eat it.)

I am not representing creationism as YEC. I'm talking about the drop-off of YEC beliefs because YEC beliefs are the ones that are falling numbers. This isn't about the beliefs of OECs - although I do mention their numbers are largely stable. So I don't know where you got any of that from.

So then the real question is, "what do the statistics mean?" For example you said educating people tends to lead to less YECs according to the statistics. I would ask, "what is the significance of that?"

One of two things. Either the critical thinking that is taught at higher education causes people to examine other ideas they have OR the kind of people that go and get higher education are less inclined to have YEC beliefs in the first place. Or both.

For example as you have already noted, they won't allow any kind of creationism in schools, so they are only teaching evolution. So it seems to me the statistics could just as easily support the notion that it is easy to brainwash students by only telling them one side of a story.

Well the biggest dropoffs don't occur during school so that hypothesis doesn't seem right. The big dropoffs are from college and beyond. Most subjects aren't even related to Creationism, evolution or cosmology so the fact that they're not taught in say economics, business, computer science, mathematics etc is immaterial.

48% of high school students or graduates believe in a 10K old specially created world.
42% of those with 'some college'
24% of college graduates
21% of postgraduates.

Confronted by all of that, "science" what can most young brains do other than to say, "wow it must be true", if they are not exposed to a critical analysis of all of those evolutionary views?

They are exposed to critical analysis, but they aren't being exposed to the bad logic and fallacious arguments of creationism. Mostly because they aren't studying anything to do with origins. However, there are still places that people can go to 'learn' all that creationist stuff - its just generally speaking there isn't a big market for spending 10s of thousands of dollars to do it.

Big deal, that doesn't affect my faith as an individual

This discussion was not intended to affect your faith.

and it isn't going to make me believe 200 identical genes for echolocation in bats and whales, could come about separately

Great. Although I should point out that the genes aren't identical - you've misunderstood the research which points out there are 200 loci that have converged, not genes. And you are welcome to disbelieve that the same search algorithm may converge on similar solutions to the same problem all you like. It won't change the fact that less and less people believe the explanation is that God created humans and bats and dolphins more or less as they are 10,000 years ago.

or that eyes can create and design themselves independently

Nobody is trying to make you believe that. It's nonsense!

So these are the generalities. Sure you can claim a, "victory" when you have 15 tanks, 200 rifles and 400 explosives and I only have a bow and arrow.

Naturally. And in the Muslim world, where the Creationists have tanks and rifles and explosives and the evolutionists have bows and arrows they can claim victory.

But really you are arguing your victory, your win, as something pertaining to society, obtusely forgetting that our society is not worldly.

I'm pretty sure it is worldly.

Numbers aren't our goal and the true victory is already won on the cross.

Good for you. Who cares if creationism isn't taught in schools, then? Nobody should! You have your victory, we have ours. Everyone's a winner. The ICR can close its doors for good as what use does it have to try and persuade people of creationism when numbers aren't your goal?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by mike the wiz, posted 05-26-2018 7:46 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by NoNukes, posted 05-26-2018 1:36 PM Modulous has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10867
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 183 of 185 (833791)
05-26-2018 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Modulous
05-26-2018 10:06 AM



48% of high school students or graduates believe in a 10K old specially created world.
42% of those with 'some college'
24% of college graduates
21% of postgraduates.

These stats almost certainly do not reflect an educating process. At least not completely. I suspect that most of the difference is screening, and perhaps self-screening. College weeds out folks who are not able to absorb a college education. There is a similar cut at the point where it is time to enroll in graduate school.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Modulous, posted 05-26-2018 10:06 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Modulous, posted 05-26-2018 2:04 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 184 of 185 (833796)
05-26-2018 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by NoNukes
05-26-2018 1:36 PM


These stats almost certainly do not reflect an educating process. At least not completely. I suspect that most of the difference is screening, and perhaps self-screening.

So you are saying that the kind of people that go and get higher education are less inclined to have YEC beliefs in the first place.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by NoNukes, posted 05-26-2018 1:36 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by NoNukes, posted 05-26-2018 5:29 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10867
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 185 of 185 (833807)
05-26-2018 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Modulous
05-26-2018 2:04 PM


"less inclined"

I am suggesting that to be part of the reason. Less inclined plus less able along with the possibility of being educated out of YEC beliefs.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Modulous, posted 05-26-2018 2:04 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

    
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