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Author Topic:   Christian principles in relation to government
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 84 (833836)
05-27-2018 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
05-27-2018 4:08 AM


Lets frame this topic
Faith writes:
I'll present a brief defense of my view here. As usual I see the problem as a confusion between what Jesus calls us as individuals to do, which the Red Letter people represent in a general way, while the pro-Trump people operate on the level of government and law in this fallen world, supporting programs that we think best serve a nation in this fallen context. Jesus gave guidelines for individuals, spoke of us as citizens of another country, made a distinction between what is owed to Caesar or the governments of this world, and what is owed to God. He did not in any way condemn Christians who serve in a governmental capacity, such as the Roman Centurions who believed and converted in His time. They weren't asked to give up their jobs and they weren't asked to turn the other cheek or go the extra mile in their capacity as servants of Caesar, they were there to keep order and there is no hint that their work was considered to be in any way contradictory with their faith in Christ.
Nations must operate by law, but Jesus addresses individuals. His influence nevertheless has influenced law in a merciful direction over time, but governments can't turn the other cheek, only individuals can, and if governments did it they would be betraying their main purpose which is the protection and organization of the people. Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law of God, He came to fulfill it, and nations must operate by Law.
Hi, Faith. Though I am not pro Trump, I do not see him as quite the antichrist that I used to see him as, and still, don't understand why the liberals are any more possessed than the conservatives. the Bible mentions that none are righteous. Politics is basically different philosophies and ideologies and I don't see Christianity as being strictly right wing nor socialist...though a case could be made for either in the Bible.
Some questions:
1) What do you personally see as Trumps greatest contributions towards protecting the United Staes from globalism? Is globalism inevitable eventually?(Revelation speaks of a one world government)
2) What doctrines and/or beliefs of the Left challenge Christianity?
3) Is it really true that America is a Christian Nation or are we more secular and (increasingly) all-inclusive? Pluralist, if you will.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 05-27-2018 4:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 05-27-2018 11:14 AM Phat has replied
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 05-27-2018 1:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 84 (833838)
05-27-2018 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
05-27-2018 7:01 AM


Re: So many basic fantasies in the OP.
There is no such thing as a True Christian and never has been; never will be. The Pope and the Evangelical Fundamentalist are both equally Christians.
based on that logic, anyone throwing a frisbee or playing softball on the weekend qualifies as an athlete simply because they say they are. The fact is that an athlete must train and discipline themselves to earn the title. Same with Christians. The controversy is as to whether one can simply claim the title or whether they must actually earn it.
You have read the Bible, so that scores points, but you also publically have no prayer life apart from ritual, and no discipline apart from doing for the least of these, which also scores points. That and you belong to a club and thus have the credentials.
My point is that there are many who claim the title of Christian (as did Adolph Hitler) but the evidence shows that they are undisciplined, do not pray or rarely acknowledge God, and use the title to further their own agenda.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 05-27-2018 7:01 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 05-27-2018 11:33 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 84 (833840)
05-27-2018 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
05-27-2018 11:14 AM


Re: Lets frame this topic
I could also ask what doctrines and/or beliefs of the Right challenge Christianity.
A case could be better made from the bible supporting liberal rather than conservative values, though Faith may disagree.
Globalism, off the cuff, is when all nation/states share the same power and interest and there is no dominant nation(s) that rule over the rest. People in the US fear it because if we had to share, on a global scale we would lose individual power and money.
The official definition is the operation or planning of economic and foreign policy on a global basis.
Also Trump is more of a nationalist, IIRC.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 05-27-2018 11:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 05-27-2018 11:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 25 of 84 (833913)
05-28-2018 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
05-27-2018 7:01 AM


Re: So many basic fantasies in the OP.
jar writes:
It is irrelevant whether or not the nation is prosperous; what is relevant is whether or not the individuals living in the nation have food, clothing, shelter, safety, health care.
But wouldn't logic suggest that in order to provide all of those essentials, individuals would have to be somewhat prosperous in order to share? You cant expect a poor man to give his last two mites to feed another poor family.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 05-27-2018 7:01 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 10:11 AM Phat has replied
 Message 32 by jar, posted 05-28-2018 10:27 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 27 of 84 (833915)
05-28-2018 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by NoNukes
05-27-2018 3:45 PM


Re: Lets frame this topic
Faith writes:
I don't want to defend conservatives as individuals or specimens of humanity, certainly not on the basis of "righteousness," and I hope to avoid like the plague anything having to do with Trump as a person because it's his policies that conservatives voted for, not his personality.
NoNukes writes:
1) Sounds like you are trying to defend conservatives despite saying that you don't want to.
She will argue that she is defending conservatism and not individual conservatives. Similar to attacking Catholicism and not individual Catholics. The focus is on the ideology in general and not on any personality of individuals.
NoNukes writes:
2) Why is Trump's non-Christian behavior not rightfully on topic.
She will argue that they elected him because of his ideology and not because of his own personality or belief quirks.
3) You've already demonstrated that you cannot defend Trump's economic policies in a way that makes any sense. You are instead repeating what someone else told you. Tell me specifically how you think Trump's policies help any but the rich, and then maybe a meaningful discussion can ensue.
The only way to keep everyone from being "dragged down to the level of the 3rd world" is to help some prosper. Its trickle down economics. This is what i don't like about conservativism. They expect me to have to work hard to keep out of trouble.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by NoNukes, posted 05-27-2018 3:45 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 10:14 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 30 of 84 (833918)
05-28-2018 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
05-28-2018 10:11 AM


Re: So many basic fantasies in the OP.
America's poor have always been way better off than the poor elsewhere because the nation has been so prosperous. Silly to think otherwise.
  • Are current conservative policies helping Americas poor to keep up with the rest of the worlds poor?
  • How is the ever-increasing deficit and national debt helping Americas people?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 10:11 AM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 31 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 10:22 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 33 of 84 (833923)
    05-28-2018 10:38 AM
    Reply to: Message 32 by jar
    05-28-2018 10:27 AM


    Re: So many basic fantasies in the OP.
    Faith is arguing that conservatism makes a nation more prosperous. You respond:
    jar writes:
    The concept of the prosperity of the nation is another of those meaningless bumper stickers disconnected from reality dogmatic slogans so beloved by many.
    You and I have discussed the reality of global economics before.
  • Will current administrative policies help national prosperity? Why or why not and why do you think national prosperity is a "bumper sticker" slogan?
    If Christian principles include helping the poor while I myself am poor, I might have been so inclined to elect a leader who would make my wallet great again.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by jar, posted 05-28-2018 10:27 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 34 by jar, posted 05-28-2018 11:07 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 36 of 84 (833928)
    05-28-2018 11:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 34 by jar
    05-28-2018 11:07 AM


    Re: So many basic fantasies in the OP.
    jar writes:
    The US is without a doubt a wealthy nation. here is empty space and wind and oil and timber and minerals and coal and hydroelectric sources for poser.
    But what does that mean to YOU?
    If someone comes in your store and says "The Nation is Prosperous" when you ask for payment does that count? Or do you prefer that you get money?
    There is a balance. If my union pushes the corporation too much, they may close. If we were weakened or disbanded, they likely would find people willing to work for less. Faith may argue that the corporate stockholders would be Christians through offering job opportunities and great sales for customers to increase business. She may see the union as a liberal nazi stronghold. I'm not sure.
    jar writes:
    It is what the wealth provides that is important not how much wealth there is. If all the wealth goes to corporations who then move the money out of the US, will that help you?
    Good point. What makes us think that conservatism has any national allegiance?
    Faith will likely argue that her topic is focusing on national conservative ideology in a Christian context and that we as a nation need to become less secular and move back to our Christian precepts (if it can be demonstrated that we once had them)
    I would argue that unionism is potentially Christian in that it helps all of the workers' petition Caesar collectively. Critics would view a union as a headless beast. The metaphor suggests that the body of Christ has a head (Christ) and the body of the antichrist has either no head (rampant socialism) or many heads of demons.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 34 by jar, posted 05-28-2018 11:07 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 37 by ringo, posted 05-28-2018 11:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 38 by jar, posted 05-28-2018 12:01 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 41 of 84 (833939)
    05-28-2018 12:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
    05-28-2018 12:50 PM


    NT Government Principles
    The Red Letter people are not talking about Law they are talking about Gospel and Gospel does not apply to government though Biblical Law does.]
    Keep in mind that your audience here at EvC does not recognize Biblical authority....but assuming they did, lets take the NT phrase Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars and God what is Gods.
    Can we first say that NT principals are the same as OT principals?
    As a group, should conservatives worry more about Caesar or about God? Is there a conflict between the two?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 12:50 PM Faith has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 1:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 42 of 84 (833940)
    05-28-2018 12:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 38 by jar
    05-28-2018 12:01 PM


    Re: So many basic fantasies in the OP.
    yeah, I have heard...but am not up on it...I will read this link when I get home from work.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 38 by jar, posted 05-28-2018 12:01 PM jar has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 80 of 84 (834032)
    05-29-2018 4:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
    05-28-2018 12:50 PM


    Red Letter vs Old Testament precepts
    also, keep in mind that OT populations had no "saved" people whereas NT Christians are...which shifts awareness of responsibility in regards to electing a good government...precisely what the red letter bunch claims.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 12:50 PM Faith has not replied

      
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