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Author Topic:   Christian principles in relation to government
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 39 of 84 (833935)
05-28-2018 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
05-27-2018 4:08 AM


Red Letter Christians refers to the fact that some Bibles put Jesus' directly quoted words in red, so this group consider themselves to be representing Jesus against other Christians they regard as not living as Christians. They emphasize work among the poor, missions and so on. Claiborne calls the pro-Trump evangelicals "Toxic Christians" who, in the words of the author of the article, endorse "Mr. Trump’s program of deporting immigrants, fanning racial tension and passing a tax deal benefiting the rich."
But I'll present a brief defense of my view here. As usual I see the problem as a confusion between what Jesus calls us as individuals to do, which the Red Letter people represent in a general way, while the pro-Trump people operate on the level of government and law in this fallen world, supporting programs that we think best serve a nation in this fallen context.
It's a shame really. Conservative Christians have historically tried to impose their views of individual morality through government actions, and try to justify their support of unchristian government actions by saying Jesus wasn't about government actions.
So gay marriage? The government should not allow it.
Drinking on Sunday? Government should forbid it.
And so on.
But when the government proposes sharing the wealth? Abomination! Outrage!
quote:
But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition...Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
1 Tim 6
and
quote:
When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
1 Corinthians
Nations must operate by law, but Jesus addresses individuals. His influence nevertheless has influenced law in a merciful direction over time, but governments can't turn the other check, only individuals can, and if governments did it they would be betraying their main purpose which is the protection and organization of the people. Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law of God, He came to fulfill it, and nations must operate by Law.
I'm pretty sure God has had some things to say about rulers, governments and nations that act in an ungodly way for their own sakes.
Also I've heard that some of the more unfair laws concerning deportation were not Trump's doing but actually done by the Democrats, laws that separate parents from children for instance, and Trump recently asked that those laws be rescinded.
Trump recently blamed those unfair policies on Democrats, but they're his policies. Under Obama families that were caught crossing the border would be housed together. Under Trump the children are sent to juvenile detention centres, away from their parents resulting in about 700 children being separated from their parents. It was mean to be a 'tough deterrent', but children are suffering so I'm not sure that can be justified.
And I think it is fair to criticize Trump as an individual. Sure - the Conservative government is a group but it's made of individuals and they all have individual choices. If those individual choices are bad, they can be criticized. We all understand that governance is a sphere unlike personal inter-relations. But when the policies you enact cause problems you can't use that as a defence for them.
Trump may claim to represent those that voted for him - although there are those that suggest they aren't getting what they voted for and they regret their vote - but that just means they too are being unChristian.
quote:
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
quote:
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
quote:
Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates:
quote:
And Solomon numbered all the strangers that were in the land of Israel, after the numbering wherewith David his father had numbered them; and they were found an hundred and fifty thousand and three thousand and six hundred. And he set threescore and ten thousand of them to be bearers of burdens, and fourscore thousand to be hewers in the mountain, and three thousand and six hundred overseers to set the people a work.
quote:
And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
quote:
And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
quote:
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
But it is odd, is it not - that we didn't hear this when Obama was in power. Then it was fine to criticize him because 'There is absolutely nothing Christian about anything he says' or to say 'Obama's behavior...would be a deceit to make it possible for him to become President {since he secretly might be a Muslim}'. If Obama thinks making pharmacists sell the morning after pill, regardless of their religious views, is in the national interest this is 'awful'. As a poster here called Faith once said
quote:
God will judge a nation for its sins...It's a tradition for Presidents to quote the Bible or sound Christian. But Obama didn't say anything about God's judgment. The point I'm trying to make here is that God's judgment on nations is not some weird oddball idea of my own
Jesus was God, I'm told. So Jesus might have spoken with individuals - but individuals with power are no more exempt for the decisions they take.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 05-27-2018 4:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 12:50 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 43 of 84 (833944)
05-28-2018 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
05-28-2018 12:50 PM


As I believe I said, government is to follow LAW, but Jesus spoke to individuals about personal behavior. The Red Letter people are not talking about Law they are talking about Gospel and Gospel does not apply to government though Biblical Law does
Trump is an individual, the legislature is composed of individuals and the voters are individuals. And the Gospel is the fulfilment of the Law isn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 12:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:34 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(3)
Message 55 of 84 (833973)
05-28-2018 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
05-28-2018 3:34 PM


If Korea should bomb San Francisco, should Trump turn the other cheek on behalf of the nation?
Fortunately I don't have to struggle with the problem.
Christians have historically more or less abandoned the Bible for guidance on this and have reverted to Greek wisdom on the matter. I suppose Jesus should have anticipated this problem better since it would dominate his post resurrected world.
I do know that if Trump committed mass murder against the citizens of the government who attacked the USA, it would fall foul of Jus ad bellum and regardless of 'it was in the national interest' he would be condemned by most Christians and Atheists alike.
It's one thing to correctly react - it's another thing to react in an ungodly fashion.
'Deport the undocumented' may survive a certain theological perspective but 'tear families apart and keep them separated for months or years' surely runs afoul of the personal mercy Jesus implored all of us, including those with executive power, to use.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:34 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 4:53 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
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