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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Stile
Member
Posts: 3244
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 61 of 157 (834379)
06-04-2018 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Rrhain
05-11-2018 3:18 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
Rrhain writes:

Stile writes:

Canada's racial problem is lesser than the US's.

No, not really. After all, the very city in which this happened is under investigation for racial bias and the rate at which black people are shot by the cops is on par with the US.

If Toronto is on par with the US (as your stats show).
And Toronto is a high statistic for Canada (obvious as stats-for-major-cities are always high statistics compared to stats-spread-across-large-countries).

Then Canada's racial problem is lesser than the US's.

But getting shot is not the end-all/be-all of police interactions. There's the rest of the justice system, too, with black people being poorly treated at every step of the way compared to their white counterparts.

It is possible to be "lesser" in comparison and not have "none" in an absolute sense.

My claim is that Canada has a pretty bad problem dealing with race in general. Canada should continue to monitor it and attempt to reduce/control it as much as possible.

But this problem in Canada is still lesser than that in the US. You seem to agree with this by saying Toronto is on par with the US. But then you seem to disagree with the statement without providing anything else to back up your claim.

You really don't have anything except some sort of defensiveness regarding someone thinking about how race was involved, do you?

The idea that Canada has a lesser problem than the US is based on your stats that Toronto is on par with the US.

Is it really so hard for this interaction to have occurred?

Me: "What part of 'the guy was white' played into your analysis?"

You: "None, but now that you mention it, it certainly didn't hurt."

And that would have been the end of it.

Not difficult at all.
It simply isn't the truth.

What's so difficult about the truth?

Rrhain writes:

You: "This policeman displayed some very impressive restraint and control!"

Me: "What part of 'the guy was white' played into your analysis?"

You: ...?

I will answer this for, what, the 42nd time now?

quote:
Enough to know it could be a significant factor, and also that it might not.

And, thanks to the stats you've provided, and your failure to provide any details on this specific situation indicating otherwise:

It seems more likely that 'the guy was white' did not play a significant role in this policeman's display of impressive restraint and control.

I can't say it's very likely - I can't read the mind of the policeman.
But I can look at the information you've brought up, and it's all either in favour of my statements or irrelevant to the specific ideas going through the mind of this particular policeman in this specific instance.


This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5593
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


(4)
Message 62 of 157 (835255)
06-20-2018 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Rrhain
05-10-2018 9:50 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
Instead, the problem was that Hyroglyphx, under a previous account as nemesis_juggernaut, was spewing homophobic bullshit all over the board.

Guilty as charged.

And all the admins, when it was pointed out, sided with the bigot. When berberry made it very clear just how despicable this was, you chalked it up to "political correctness," that he had a "thin skin," and suspended him not for anything he had done but because you were certain he would "regret" posts he hadn't made...oh, and calling him a woman in the process.

While my posts back then were clearly homophobic, it didn't violate any forum rule. As I recall, I was pretty measured whereas you, Dan, and Berberry were out for my blood and spewing your own invective.

Kind of amazing to see you holding on to a grudge for so long towards Modulous, who himself is gay, and clearly wasn't "siding with the bigot [me]" for ideological reasons.

He did his job, and he did it well. Mod has always been able to set aside personal differences to remain objective and fair when it comes to the rules of the board.


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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5593
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 63 of 157 (835301)
06-21-2018 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
03-31-2018 9:45 AM


I think many times the police are placed in untenable situations having to make rapid fire decisions based on incomplete information, but just the same, it is wrong that there are people in our midst whose mission is to serve and protect but who have the right to shoot us with impunity.

Being a cop is tougher than it has ever been in the history of law enforcement. No respects you and you are held to an almost impossible standard - a standard that most people simply don't understand. But... that's what it's going to take to gain the trust of the public. Many agencies were very dirty not all that long ago. Things are changing though and it is important that people recognize it.

Maybe knowing that they'll be held personally accountable will force both top-down and bottom-up change to the way police are trained. Taking their guns away would also go a long way toward preventing deaths and confrontations.

There's no way to be a cop without a gun... at least in the U.S., because it is so inundated with firearms. There would be daily assassinations. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 06-21-2018 9:51 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
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Percy
Member
Posts: 17752
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 64 of 157 (835310)
06-21-2018 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2018 2:22 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:

There would be daily assassinations.

The murder of law enforcement officers would decrease, and the profile or character of those murders would change as officers became less likely to place themselves in confrontational situations.

Guns usually, though not always, increase the danger in any situation. For this reason, getting rid of guns will usually, but not always, make everyone safer. Eliminating guns will cause a huge drop in the firearm death rate.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2018 2:22 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2018 5:28 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17752
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 65 of 157 (835312)
06-21-2018 10:00 AM


Police Murder 17-Year-Old
As long as I'm posting to this thread, may as well mention this recent event: Unarmed 17-Year-Old Fatally Shot as He Ran From East Pittsburgh Police

Quote from woman at the scene: “Why are they shooting?” the woman recording the video says. “All they did was run and they’re shooting at them!”

Link to Facebook video: Murder Video

Take away most officer's guns, no murder. Only officers in special units should have guns.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 15429
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 66 of 157 (835316)
06-21-2018 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2018 2:22 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:

... you are held to an almost impossible standard - a standard that most people simply don't understand.


That seems contradictory. How can people hold police to a standard that they, the people, don't understand?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2018 2:22 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2018 5:35 PM ringo has responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1504
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 67 of 157 (835318)
06-21-2018 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Percy
06-21-2018 10:00 AM


Re: Police Murder 17-Year-Old
As long as I'm posting to this thread, may as well mention this recent event: Unarmed 17-Year-Old Fatally Shot as He Ran From East Pittsburgh Police

Quote from woman at the scene: “Why are they shooting?” the woman recording the video says. “All they did was run and they’re shooting at them!”

This, I think, is a legal and cultural matter. Under UK law, a policeman who shot someone running away would stand a serious risk of being charged with murder (or at least unlawful killing of come kind). The only legal justification to shoot people is defense of yourself or others (and maybe property - don't quite remember).

In at least some jurisdictions in the US, running away from the police in and of itself is considered a legitimate legal justification for shooting someone. This I don't understand.

Take away most officer's guns, no murder. Only officers in special units should have guns.

I think there's a bit more to it than this. Here in Czech Republic the police all carry guns, but it's very rare for them to shoot someone. I do not think this is because the police here are more professional or better at their jobs - experience suggests this is clearly not the case. I think it's because, despite the fact that gun laws here are fairly liberal, very few people actually own guns; and even fewer carry them around with them. When police stop a car here, the idea that they risk being shot probably never enters their heads, and this affects the way the approach the situation.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 15429
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 68 of 157 (835319)
06-21-2018 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by caffeine
06-21-2018 12:59 PM


Re: Police Murder 17-Year-Old
This, I think, is a legal and cultural matter.

In most of the western world:

Q: Why did you shoot that man?
A: Because he had a gun.

In the US:

Q: Why did you shoot that man?
A: Because I had a gun.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by caffeine, posted 06-21-2018 12:59 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5593
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 69 of 157 (835334)
06-21-2018 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Percy
06-21-2018 9:51 AM


The murder of law enforcement officers would decrease, and the profile or character of those murders would change as officers became less likely to place themselves in confrontational situations.

How would you propose officers dealing with an active shooter situation without the use of law enforcement being armed? Because currently we have a situation where guns are legal in the US, guns being prevalent in the US, and a penchant for people using them. By eliminating police using guns you have a situation where it is functionally impossible to stop the threat. And as we have seen, in times past, they don't stop until someone stops them.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 06-21-2018 9:51 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by NoNukes, posted 06-21-2018 5:34 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 157 (835335)
06-21-2018 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2018 5:28 PM


How would you propose officers dealing with an active shooter situation without the use of law enforcement being armed?

The way such things are handled in other countries is that the police are not routinely armed, but can get arms for a particular situation. Perhaps Percy is advocating a similar system for the US.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2018 5:28 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5593
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 71 of 157 (835336)
06-21-2018 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
06-21-2018 11:49 AM


That seems contradictory. How can people hold police to a standard that they, the people, don't understand?

It's always best to quote someone else when they can explain it better than you can.

quote:
"Don't credit me with the mongrel prose: it has many parents-at least 420,000 of them: Policemen.

A Policeman is a composite of what all men are, mingling of a saint and sinner, dust and deity.

Gulled statistics wave the fan over the stinkers, underscore instances of dishonesty and brutality because they are "new". What they really mean is that they are exceptional, unusual, not commonplace.

Buried under the frost is the fact: Less than one-half of one percent of policemen misfit the uniform. That's a better average than you'd find among clergy!

What is a policeman made of? He, of all men, is once the most needed and the most unwanted. He's a strangely nameless creature who is "sir" to his face and "pig" to his back

He must be such a diplomat that he can settle differences between individuals so that each will think he won.

But...If the policeman is neat, he's conceited; if he's careless, he's a bum. If he's pleasant, he's flirting;if not, he's a grouch.

He must make an instant decision which would require months for a lawyer to make.

But...If he hurries, he's careless; if he's deliberate, he's lazy. He must be first to an accident and infallible with his diagnosis. He must be able to start breathing, stop bleeding, tie splints and, above all, be sure the victim goes home without a limp. Or expect to be sued.

The police officer must know every gun, draw on the run, and hit where it doesn't hurt.He must be able to whip two men twice his size and half his age without damaging his uniform and without being "brutal". If you hit him, he's a coward. If he hits you, he's a bully.

A policeman must know everything-and not tell. He must know where all the sin is and not partake.

A policeman must, from a single strand of hair, be able to describe the crime, the weapon and the criminal- and tell you where the criminal is hiding.

But...If he catches the criminal, he's lucky; if he doesn't, he's a dunce. If he gets promoted, he has political pull; if he doesn't, he's a dullard. The policeman must chase a bum lead to a dead-end, stake out ten nights to tag one witness who saw it happen-but refused to remember.

The policeman must be a minister, a social worker, a diplomat, a tough guy and a gentleman.

And, of course, he'd have to be genius....For he will have to feed a family on a policeman's salary." - Paul Harvey


Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 06-21-2018 11:49 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 06-21-2018 5:45 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5593
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 72 of 157 (835337)
06-21-2018 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by caffeine
06-21-2018 12:59 PM


Re: Police Murder 17-Year-Old
In at least some jurisdictions in the US, running away from the police in and of itself is considered a legitimate legal justification for shooting someone. This I don't understand.

The only legal way to shoot someone who is running away from you is that this person has presented an imminent threat to self or others. The only exceptions may be that this person has already gone on some kind of killing spree and still has the means to continue on.

The legal standard is objective reasonableness.

  1. Judged through the perspective of a reasonable officer
    1. Officer with same or similar training and experience
    2. Facing similar circumstances
    3. Act the same way or use similar judgment
  2. Based on the totality of the facts known to the officer at the time the force was applied
    1. No matter how compelling the evidence is to be found later
    2. No hindsight evaluation
  3. Based on the facts known to the officer without regard to the underlying intent or motivation
  4. Based on the knowledge the officer acted properly under established law at the time

You can't shoot someone in the back without some very compelling articulable reason that passes an objectively reasonable standard

Edited by Admin, : Fix horrible list formatting.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5593
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 73 of 157 (835338)
06-21-2018 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by NoNukes
06-21-2018 5:34 PM


The way such things are handled in other countries is that the police are not routinely armed, but can get arms for a particular situation. Perhaps Percy is advocating a similar system for the US.

Perhaps so, but that's an entirely different argument. Presumably Percy would want these changes today, if he could, whereas it would not allow for a massive de-arming of everyone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by NoNukes, posted 06-21-2018 5:34 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15429
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 74 of 157 (835339)
06-21-2018 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2018 5:35 PM


So it isn' t really a matter of the public not understanding the standard. They're just hypocritical about it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2018 5:35 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2018 6:00 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5593
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 75 of 157 (835342)
06-21-2018 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
06-21-2018 5:45 PM


So it isn' t really a matter of the public not understanding the standard. They're just hypocritical about it.

Or they just don't understand the complexities involved.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 06-21-2018 5:45 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

    
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