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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 486 of 882 (833788)
05-26-2018 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 485 by ringo
05-26-2018 1:15 PM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
If you really believe that "knowing good and evil" was an improvement on our original condition, or that the Bible seems to say that, while we lost touch with our Creator and had to toil for a living among thorns and bear children in agony and suffer all kinds of sufferings, hideous diseases and death and murder and mayhem, you are stuck accepting a hostile environment as an improvement, a hostile God, a benevolent Satan who nevertheless tyrannizes us, a world of pain and death as opposed to the original Creation. You do all accept all that, don't you? You think it's normal. I guess I can't talk you out of it. You think that's a good thing, I don't, but you are stuck with it given your view of the eating of the apple. Anything to render the Bible meaningless I guess. In the end of course you just have to give up on it, no matter how clearly our actual reality fits the biblical description of its consequences. I'm sure you don't really feel you are "like God" -- either the true omnipotent good God or the evil God you think the Bible talks about.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by ringo, posted 05-26-2018 1:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 499 by ringo, posted 05-27-2018 2:15 PM Faith has not replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 488 of 882 (833790)
05-26-2018 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 487 by Percy
05-26-2018 1:28 PM


Re: Faith's fantasies vs reality
But I DO believe the "required evidence" has "materialized." I'm sure you derived that from something I said that you misread, but you got it wrong. Oh well, nothing new there.
You said something about how I was being inconsistent about something, but I no longer care to track it down.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by Percy, posted 05-26-2018 1:28 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 490 of 882 (833794)
05-26-2018 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Percy
05-26-2018 1:47 PM


Re: Faith's fantasies vs reality
You misunderstand the implications of "witnesses," you misunderstand just about everything I say, and yes I probably won't get back to trying to set you straight. It never works and there's always more coming at me. Hey maybe it's my fault, but since I've done the best I know how to do there's nothing I can do about that anyway. OH WELL.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Percy, posted 05-26-2018 1:47 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 552 of 882 (834825)
06-13-2018 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 551 by Tangle
06-13-2018 4:22 AM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Doesn't it ever bother you that you are this amazing creature, meaning that human beings are amazing creatures, too amazing to have been thrown together by mindless particles, too amazing to live for a while with all our amazing thoughts and feelings that have nothing to do with the life of mere mindless particles, ideals that seem inconsistent with the life of mere particles, even the idea of eternal life which some have though maybe you don't let yourself have it, only to flare up for a few decades and then just get snuffed out forever? Doesn't it seem like a tremendous waste? Shouldn't you be shaking your fist at such a system that would create such an amazing being only to kill it forever? Instead so many here are shaking fists at the idea of a God who intended us to be amazing and offers us eternal life. I guess I get it, I spent most of my life believing some such thing but I also hated it and thought it ridiculous that such a creature could be created by mere chemistry. Sure, it proves nothing except that we are incredibly tragic beings out of place and hopeless. Just the way it is, just "reality." Get real, accept this ridiculous tragic fate.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2018 4:22 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2018 11:20 AM Faith has replied
 Message 586 by jar, posted 06-15-2018 8:05 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 554 of 882 (834832)
06-13-2018 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 553 by Tangle
06-13-2018 11:20 AM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
You hated the idea that this is all there is so chose to believe something that made you feel better.
I'm not going to argue with anything else you said, but this I want to correct: I'm sure there are lots of people, westerners anyway, who have had such feelings as I described and yet never came to believe in any God or gods, just went on in the sense of futility getting whatever pleasure they could find, as you seem to suggest is all we can expect anyway. I didn't become a believer until I was about 46 and I really think I could have gone on never becoming a believer because it isn't my choice. If I had chosen perhaps I would have chosen to believe....SOMETHING, though it might not have been Christianity because I had a struggle when it came to that choice even after I had become convinced of supernatural realities. Nobody can simply choose to be a Christian, scripture says that in a million ways, you are called by God or you are not His, it's His gift. And I know that in my own experience. I couldn't believe what I'd read about religion or Christianity, really couldn't, so when I finally did I know it was not my choice, I know God had mercy on me and gave me that gift and I am eternally grateful. I suppose some people become Christians in a sense for a while out of some idea it is comforting but I don't see how they could last long. This life is full of joy, but it is not full of fun and sometimes it is downright miserable from a human point of view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2018 11:20 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 556 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2018 1:25 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 559 of 882 (834851)
06-13-2018 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 556 by Tangle
06-13-2018 1:25 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
I know God had mercy on me and gave me that gift and I am eternally grateful.
Yes Faith you are terribly special. Saved as well, you tell us.
The point is actually the reverse: I couldn't do anything at all to be saved, I have nothing to offer God, He chooses whom He will choose, there is no way even to guess why, and all we can be is grateful, we can't take credit for any of it. I am certainly blessed, but special, no, God chooses losers and sinners, not the righteous, as Jesus said. I'm sure you've heard the song they sing at Billy Graham crusades: "Just as I am without one plea, but that thy blood was shed for me...."
Anyone who finds him/herself wanting to be saved already has God's grace though.
Yes I'm a Calvinist, believing that God does it all, changes us, gives us faith, gives us love of His Law, gives us the desire to believe too. As the Bible says, otherwise we'd be inclined to think we are special, but this way we know we aren't.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2018 1:25 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 562 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 1:17 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 560 of 882 (834852)
06-13-2018 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 558 by Tangle
06-13-2018 2:07 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
As often happens you've attributed a quote to me that isn't mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 558 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2018 2:07 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 563 of 882 (834865)
06-14-2018 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 562 by Tangle
06-14-2018 1:17 AM


salvation by grace through faith, not works
Faith writes:
The point is actually the reverse: I couldn't do anything at all to be saved, I have nothing to offer God, He chooses whom He will choose, there is no way even to guess why, and all we can be is grateful, we can't take credit for any of it. I am certainly blessed, but special, no, God chooses losers and sinners, not the righteous, as Jesus said.
This makes no sense whatsoever. Not even biblically.
Please explain why not. I may not have expressed it very well, but I was trying to say something that is a familiar theme in the Bible, which is that we are saved by grace, by God's inexplicable will, and not by works, meaning we can't do anything to earn salvation, it is completely God's gift according to His own purposes. (This is really the essence of Calvinism.)
Luke 5:32 [Jesus says] I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus...,
Titus 3:4-5 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy...
32 Bible verses about Salvation Not By Works
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 562 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 1:17 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 564 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 8:24 AM Faith has replied
 Message 568 by ringo, posted 06-14-2018 11:44 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 565 of 882 (834867)
06-14-2018 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 564 by Tangle
06-14-2018 8:24 AM


Re: salvation by grace through faith, not works
There are stacks of threads on this, I'm not going to go through all that fanatical nonsense with you. Maybe others have more patience/interest.
But the idea that people are chosen seemingly at random to be 'saved' is .... well never mind, just discussing this fanatical make-believe gives it more credence than it deserves.
I get it that you don't like the idea, but you said it isn't biblical and I believe I showed that it is, so please acknowledge that much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 564 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 8:24 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 566 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 9:16 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 567 of 882 (834875)
06-14-2018 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 566 by Tangle
06-14-2018 9:16 AM


Re: salvation by grace through faith, not works
No, I don't want to discuss it further. I gave some Bible verses and a link to more of the same that should be enough to show that the point I'm making is indeed biblical no matter what other opinions there may be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 566 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 9:16 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 573 of 882 (834898)
06-14-2018 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 570 by Tangle
06-14-2018 1:08 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Tangle, I don't know why but you keep imputing quotes to me that aren't mine, what's that all about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 1:08 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 575 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 4:36 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 574 of 882 (834899)
06-14-2018 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 572 by Tangle
06-14-2018 3:02 PM


Grace and free will
You'll just have to forgive me for not knowing what position everyone that calls themselves a Christian takes on these imaginary issues. I had assumed that freewill was a cornerstone of Christian thinking, if it's not I'll just add it to the long list of stuff that baffles me about what people can bring themselves to believe.
Faith has no free will is, well, interesting.
Again you impute to me something NN said.
Certainly nobody expects you -- at least I don't expect you to understand all the shades of Christian theology, I just wanted you to take note that salvation by grace alone is biblical even though other positions may also take their cue from the Bible.
I really didn't want to get into a big discussion about this, just clarify that one point. But now I also want to clarify that the Calvinist rejection of free will is about choosing salvation and not about everyday life where we choose all sorts of things. The idea is that we can't choose salvation, God does it all, "lest any man should boast."
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 3:02 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 576 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 4:50 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 577 of 882 (834907)
06-14-2018 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 576 by Tangle
06-14-2018 4:50 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Tangle writes:
Faith writes:
Certainly nobody expects you -- at least I don't expect you to understand all the shades of Christian theology.
Why should there be any more than one shade of Christianity? Could it be that you're all making it up?
No, it all does derive from the Bible itself, but people read with different degrees of attention and understanding and the relevant passages are not all in one place. Again, I showed with those quotes that there's plenty of biblical support for salvation by grace and not works, and that is all I wanted to bring to your attention.
Tangle writes:
Faith writes:
I just wanted you to take note that salvation by grace alone is biblical even though other positions may also take their cue from the Bible.
It's what you say is biblical and what others say isn't. To my mind if it wasn't all a total fantasy, it would be black and white.
Based on what?
But now I also want to clarify that the Calvinist rejection of free will is about choosing salvation
Right, and of course you don't see any contradiction of choosing salvation and rejecting free will? You know, the thing that allows choice?
Eh? I'm saying we CAN'T choose salvation, right? And it's in that category of choice that free will doesn't apply because that's a high level spiritual/moral choice that fallen humanity doesn't have the ability to make since we lost all that at the Fall, though we can make all kinds of ordinary everyday choices on the level of the "flesh." God has to give us the spiritual perception to be able to choose salvation. I could probably find a good Bible-based theological discussion to clarify all this for you but I gather you aren't interested.
It really does all hang together, the Bible really is consistent but you do have to spend some time getting to know it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 4:50 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 579 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 5:44 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 578 of 882 (834908)
06-14-2018 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 576 by Tangle
06-14-2018 4:50 PM


Re: Grace and free will
It's what you say is biblical and what others say isn't. To my mind if it wasn't all a total fantasy, it would be black and white.
Did you mean to say "IF what you say is biblical THEN what others say isn't?"
If so then I'd answer yes, I would say the other positions aren't really biblical, although they can quote passages that seem to support them if you don't take the whole biblical context into account. If you do take it all into account I believe the Calivinist position is the truly biblical position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 4:50 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 580 of 882 (834913)
06-14-2018 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 579 by Tangle
06-14-2018 5:44 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Yes language can be a problem, and it looks like I didn't do the best job of being clear either. No, I'm trying to make the point that nobody can choose to be saved by our own natural means. If God saves us He's given us the spiritual discernment to be able to choose Him in return but it all comes from Him. I hope that's clear, if not I'd like to exit this thread anyway.
All I wanted was acknowledgment that there is plenty of biblical support for the salvation-by-grace-not-works position without getting into how much support there is for other positions, but yes I'd claim the support for my position is far more comprehensive and defensible than that for others. I just didn't want to get that deeply into this. Surely you can see from the quotes I posted, however, that there IS plenty of biblical support for my position. Just say yes and we can maybe get GDR to come back and I can get out of this discussion.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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