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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6081
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 556 of 882 (834836)
06-13-2018 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 554 by Faith
06-13-2018 12:09 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Faith writes:

Nobody can simply choose to be a Christian, scripture says that in a million ways, you are called by God or you are not His, it's His gift. And I know that in my own experience. I couldn't believe what I'd read about religion or Christianity, really couldn't, so when I finally did I know it was not my choice,

Woops, there goes free will. There goes morality.

I know God had mercy on me and gave me that gift and I am eternally grateful.

Yes Faith you are terribly special. Saved as well, you tell us.

Baloney!


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by Faith, posted 06-13-2018 12:09 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 557 by NoNukes, posted 06-13-2018 1:57 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 559 by Faith, posted 06-13-2018 6:54 PM Tangle has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 557 of 882 (834837)
06-13-2018 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 556 by Tangle
06-13-2018 1:25 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Woops, there goes free will. There goes morality.

Yep. Faith is a Calvinist.

Although to be clear, free will is pretty slippery concepts and lots of non-religious folks have problems with it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2018 1:25 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 558 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2018 2:07 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6081
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 558 of 882 (834839)
06-13-2018 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 557 by NoNukes
06-13-2018 1:57 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
NoNukes writes:

Although to be clear, free will is pretty slippery concepts and lots of non-religious folks have problems with it.

For the very good reason that it's another religious invention that doesn't actually exist.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 557 by NoNukes, posted 06-13-2018 1:57 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 560 by Faith, posted 06-13-2018 6:59 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 569 by NoNukes, posted 06-14-2018 12:59 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29538
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 559 of 882 (834851)
06-13-2018 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 556 by Tangle
06-13-2018 1:25 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
I know God had mercy on me and gave me that gift and I am eternally grateful.

Yes Faith you are terribly special. Saved as well, you tell us.

The point is actually the reverse: I couldn't do anything at all to be saved, I have nothing to offer God, He chooses whom He will choose, there is no way even to guess why, and all we can be is grateful, we can't take credit for any of it. I am certainly blessed, but special, no, God chooses losers and sinners, not the righteous, as Jesus said. I'm sure you've heard the song they sing at Billy Graham crusades: "Just as I am without one plea, but that thy blood was shed for me...."

Anyone who finds him/herself wanting to be saved already has God's grace though.

Yes I'm a Calvinist, believing that God does it all, changes us, gives us faith, gives us love of His Law, gives us the desire to believe too. As the Bible says, otherwise we'd be inclined to think we are special, but this way we know we aren't.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2018 1:25 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 562 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 1:17 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29538
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 560 of 882 (834852)
06-13-2018 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 558 by Tangle
06-13-2018 2:07 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
As often happens you've attributed a quote to me that isn't mine.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 558 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2018 2:07 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 561 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 1:14 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6081
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 561 of 882 (834863)
06-14-2018 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 560 by Faith
06-13-2018 6:59 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Fixed, thanks

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by Faith, posted 06-13-2018 6:59 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6081
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 562 of 882 (834864)
06-14-2018 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 559 by Faith
06-13-2018 6:54 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Faith writes:

The point is actually the reverse: I couldn't do anything at all to be saved, I have nothing to offer God, He chooses whom He will choose, there is no way even to guess why, and all we can be is grateful, we can't take credit for any of it. I am certainly blessed, but special, no, God chooses losers and sinners, not the righteous, as Jesus said.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Not even biblically.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 559 by Faith, posted 06-13-2018 6:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 563 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 6:59 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29538
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 563 of 882 (834865)
06-14-2018 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 562 by Tangle
06-14-2018 1:17 AM


salvation by grace through faith, not works
Faith writes:

The point is actually the reverse: I couldn't do anything at all to be saved, I have nothing to offer God, He chooses whom He will choose, there is no way even to guess why, and all we can be is grateful, we can't take credit for any of it. I am certainly blessed, but special, no, God chooses losers and sinners, not the righteous, as Jesus said.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Not even biblically.

Please explain why not. I may not have expressed it very well, but I was trying to say something that is a familiar theme in the Bible, which is that we are saved by grace, by God's inexplicable will, and not by works, meaning we can't do anything to earn salvation, it is completely God's gift according to His own purposes. (This is really the essence of Calvinism.)

Luke 5:32 [Jesus says] I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus...,

Titus 3:4-5 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy...

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/...cs/Salvation-Not-By-Works

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 562 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 1:17 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 564 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 8:24 AM Faith has responded
 Message 568 by ringo, posted 06-14-2018 11:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6081
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 564 of 882 (834866)
06-14-2018 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 563 by Faith
06-14-2018 6:59 AM


Re: salvation by grace through faith, not works
Faith writes:

Please explain why not.

There are stacks of threads on this, I'm not going to go through all that fanatical nonsense with you. Maybe others have more patience/interest.

But the idea that people are chosen seemingly at random to be 'saved' is .... well never mind, just discussing this fanatical make-believe gives it more credence than it deserves.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 563 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 6:59 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 565 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 8:44 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29538
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 565 of 882 (834867)
06-14-2018 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 564 by Tangle
06-14-2018 8:24 AM


Re: salvation by grace through faith, not works
There are stacks of threads on this, I'm not going to go through all that fanatical nonsense with you. Maybe others have more patience/interest.

But the idea that people are chosen seemingly at random to be 'saved' is .... well never mind, just discussing this fanatical make-believe gives it more credence than it deserves.

I get it that you don't like the idea, but you said it isn't biblical and I believe I showed that it is, so please acknowledge that much.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 564 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 8:24 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 566 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 9:16 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6081
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 566 of 882 (834873)
06-14-2018 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 565 by Faith
06-14-2018 8:44 AM


Re: salvation by grace through faith, not works
Faith writes:

I get it that you don't like the idea, but you said it isn't biblical and I believe I showed that it is, so please acknowledge that much.

Oh come on. you've seen all this before..... here's 30+ pages on what various Christians think about how to be saved.

http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=7079

Personally I was taught that you just need to be baptised, attend church and lead a good life. (Unfortunately there's all that stuff about giving away all your dosh too, but no-one takes any notice of that.)

If you want to discuss it again, I suggest you open a new thread, it aint my bag.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 565 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 8:44 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 567 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 9:19 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29538
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 567 of 882 (834875)
06-14-2018 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 566 by Tangle
06-14-2018 9:16 AM


Re: salvation by grace through faith, not works
No, I don't want to discuss it further. I gave some Bible verses and a link to more of the same that should be enough to show that the point I'm making is indeed biblical no matter what other opinions there may be.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 566 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 9:16 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15125
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 568 of 882 (834881)
06-14-2018 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 563 by Faith
06-14-2018 6:59 AM


Re: salvation by grace through faith, not works
Faith writes:

Please explain why not.


Matthew 25:31-46. Sheep v. goats.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 563 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 6:59 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 569 of 882 (834883)
06-14-2018 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 558 by Tangle
06-13-2018 2:07 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
NoNukes writes:

Although to be clear, free will is pretty slippery concepts and lots of non-religious folks have problems with it.

Tangle writes:

For the very good reason that it's another religious invention that doesn't actually exist.

You are not alone in believing that. But didn't you just complain to Faith that her invocation of Calvinism did away with free will? What is the point if you don't believe in free will anyway?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 558 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2018 2:07 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 570 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 1:08 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6081
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 570 of 882 (834884)
06-14-2018 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by NoNukes
06-14-2018 12:59 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Faith writes:

But didn't you just complain to Faith that her invocation of Calvinism did away with free will? What is the point if you don't believe in free will anyway?

In order to point out a contradiction in her thinking.

If I only took part in conversations where I held the same belief as the poster, I'd be near silent here.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by NoNukes, posted 06-14-2018 12:59 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 571 by NoNukes, posted 06-14-2018 1:40 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 573 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 4:03 PM Tangle has responded

  
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