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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 551 of 882 (834822)
06-13-2018 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 550 by GDR
06-12-2018 9:53 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
GDR writes:
Like you say they have found portions of the brain which can be shown to affect our potential for good or evil.
Finally!
But it also shows that it isn’t the final answer. It can also be affected and even changed either way by environment.
Of course it's not the final answer, we've known for a long time that nurture is at least as important as nature. The article you link to is pretty good in a popularist way and picks out most of the core point:
quote:
For centuries the question of how good and evil originate and manifest in us was a matter of philosophical or religious debate. But in recent decades researchers have made significant advances toward understanding the science of what drives good and evil. Both seem to be linked to a key emotional trait: empathy, which is an intrinsic ability of the brain to experience how another person is feeling. Researchers have found that empathy is the kindling that fires compassion in our hearts, impelling us to help others in distress. Studies also have traced violent, psychopathic, and antisocial behaviors to a lack of empathy, which appears to stem from impaired neural circuits.
This is what I've been trying to tell you for a long time. Empathy is an evolved trait like all others and is the source of what we call morality. It's a brain function. It's not a voice from god acting on our heart. So can we put all that magical thinking to one side?
Now, your quote about violent teenage criminals. There are many ways that people's behaviour becomes violent and anti-social. The main ones are not psychopathy, they're social. The environment if you like - poverty, drugs, homelessness, lack of parental control, violence in childhood, criminal upbringing etc etc. There's no claim in the article that the children suffer from psychopathy, it's far more likely that most don't.
But of course it's true that with enough time, resource and determination some children - and even adults - can be rehabilitated.
It's not even the case that all psychopaths are criminals. They simply lack the emotions that the rest of us have to empathise with others. They learn to fake empathy: intellect rather than emotion. This is why a disproportionate number of CEOs are psychopaths.
So if we as individual can transmit memes to one another that can change a person’s tendency away from or towards empathy the isn’t it also conceivable that there could be a God meme that could also impact our behaviours in the same way. And further, isn’t it reasonable to think that the same meme would also give us the impetus to attempt to encourage others to be more empathetic.
As your god retreats further and further away you desperately try to drag him back into your mystical territory.
The empathy trait dominates our society, it forces us to get along. Additionally our intelligence has developed structures in society that magnify its effect beyong family and friends to encompass complete strangers and to force compliance often against our own interests. These are our schools, hospitals, social services, criminal justice systems and other institutions. They shape our moral behaviour - normalising good behaviour and punishing bad. As a result of our development as pro-social beings violence and criminal behaviour has fallen through the centuries.
In other words your 'god memes' source is empathy and consciuosness - both evolved traits - which allows us to develop into the people we are.
I have no idea how you jemmy your god into that process but I'm sure you'll try. Whatever you imagine, a god is not necessary to produce the effect, nor is there any evidence that he has.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by GDR, posted 06-12-2018 9:53 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by Faith, posted 06-13-2018 9:06 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 597 by GDR, posted 06-15-2018 7:01 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 553 of 882 (834827)
06-13-2018 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 552 by Faith
06-13-2018 9:06 AM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Faith writes:
Doesn't it ever bother you that you are this amazing creature, meaning that human beings are amazing creatures,
No, why should it?
too amazing to have been thrown together by mindless particles, too amazing to live for a while with all our amazing thoughts and feelings that have nothing to do with the life of mere mindless particles,
This sort of thinking was, of course, what created all the gods that mankind has invented. But it’s now known to be false. People are made of the same stuff as cockroaches. I am special therefore god exists and he is Christian is terrible logic.
Doesn't it seem like a tremendous waste? Shouldn't you be shaking your fist at such a system that would create such an amazing being only to kill it forever?
Would shaking my fist make any difference? It is what it is, we both won the lottery of life, enjoy it.
instead so many here are shaking fists at the idea of a God who intended us to be amazing and offers us eternal life.
There’s no god offering anything. How can we shake a fist at someone else’s fantasy?
I guess I get it, I spent most of my life believing some such thing but I also hated it and thought it ridiculous that such a creature could be created by mere chemistry.
You hated the idea that this is all there is so chose to believe something that made you feel better. Fine, but it changes nothing about whether what you believe is true or not.
Sure, it proves nothing except that we are incredibly tragic beings out of place and hopeless. Just the way it is, just "reality." Get real, accept this ridiculous tragic fate.
I have accepted this ridiculous fate. It’s a hoot.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by Faith, posted 06-13-2018 9:06 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by Faith, posted 06-13-2018 12:09 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 556 of 882 (834836)
06-13-2018 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 554 by Faith
06-13-2018 12:09 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Faith writes:
Nobody can simply choose to be a Christian, scripture says that in a million ways, you are called by God or you are not His, it's His gift. And I know that in my own experience. I couldn't believe what I'd read about religion or Christianity, really couldn't, so when I finally did I know it was not my choice,
Woops, there goes free will. There goes morality.
I know God had mercy on me and gave me that gift and I am eternally grateful.
Yes Faith you are terribly special. Saved as well, you tell us.
Baloney!

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by Faith, posted 06-13-2018 12:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 557 by NoNukes, posted 06-13-2018 1:57 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 559 by Faith, posted 06-13-2018 6:54 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 558 of 882 (834839)
06-13-2018 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 557 by NoNukes
06-13-2018 1:57 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
NoNukes writes:
Although to be clear, free will is pretty slippery concepts and lots of non-religious folks have problems with it.
For the very good reason that it's another religious invention that doesn't actually exist.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 557 by NoNukes, posted 06-13-2018 1:57 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 560 by Faith, posted 06-13-2018 6:59 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 569 by NoNukes, posted 06-14-2018 12:59 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 561 of 882 (834863)
06-14-2018 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 560 by Faith
06-13-2018 6:59 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Fixed, thanks

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by Faith, posted 06-13-2018 6:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 562 of 882 (834864)
06-14-2018 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 559 by Faith
06-13-2018 6:54 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Faith writes:
The point is actually the reverse: I couldn't do anything at all to be saved, I have nothing to offer God, He chooses whom He will choose, there is no way even to guess why, and all we can be is grateful, we can't take credit for any of it. I am certainly blessed, but special, no, God chooses losers and sinners, not the righteous, as Jesus said.
This makes no sense whatsoever. Not even biblically.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 559 by Faith, posted 06-13-2018 6:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 563 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 6:59 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 564 of 882 (834866)
06-14-2018 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 563 by Faith
06-14-2018 6:59 AM


Re: salvation by grace through faith, not works
Faith writes:
Please explain why not.
There are stacks of threads on this, I'm not going to go through all that fanatical nonsense with you. Maybe others have more patience/interest.
But the idea that people are chosen seemingly at random to be 'saved' is .... well never mind, just discussing this fanatical make-believe gives it more credence than it deserves.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 563 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 6:59 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 565 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 8:44 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 566 of 882 (834873)
06-14-2018 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 565 by Faith
06-14-2018 8:44 AM


Re: salvation by grace through faith, not works
Faith writes:
I get it that you don't like the idea, but you said it isn't biblical and I believe I showed that it is, so please acknowledge that much.
Oh come on. you've seen all this before..... here's 30+ pages on what various Christians think about how to be saved.
EvC Forum: Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
Personally I was taught that you just need to be baptised, attend church and lead a good life. (Unfortunately there's all that stuff about giving away all your dosh too, but no-one takes any notice of that.)
If you want to discuss it again, I suggest you open a new thread, it aint my bag.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 565 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 8:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 567 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 9:19 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 570 of 882 (834884)
06-14-2018 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by NoNukes
06-14-2018 12:59 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Faith writes:
But didn't you just complain to Faith that her invocation of Calvinism did away with free will? What is the point if you don't believe in free will anyway?
In order to point out a contradiction in her thinking.
If I only took part in conversations where I held the same belief as the poster, I'd be near silent here.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by NoNukes, posted 06-14-2018 12:59 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 571 by NoNukes, posted 06-14-2018 1:40 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 573 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 4:03 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 572 of 882 (834894)
06-14-2018 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 571 by NoNukes
06-14-2018 1:40 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
NoNukes writes:
The problem is that Faith is a Calvinist. Free will really is not compatible with Calvinism as has been discussed here many times. So what is your point?
You'll just have to forgive me for not knowing what position everyone that calls themselves a Christian takes on these imaginary issues. I had assumed that freewill was a cornerstone of Christian thinking, if it's not I'll just add it to the long list of stuff that baffles me about what people can bring themselves to believe.
Faith has no free will is, well, interesting.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by NoNukes, posted 06-14-2018 1:40 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 574 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 4:19 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 575 of 882 (834902)
06-14-2018 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 573 by Faith
06-14-2018 4:03 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Faith writes:
Tangle, I don't know why but you keep imputing quotes to me that aren't mine, what's that all about?
I guess you're just habit forming.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 4:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 576 of 882 (834904)
06-14-2018 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 574 by Faith
06-14-2018 4:19 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Faith writes:
Certainly nobody expects you -- at least I don't expect you to understand all the shades of Christian theology
Why should there be any more than one shade of Christianity? Could it be that you're all making it up?
I just wanted you to take note that salvation by grace alone is biblical even though other positions may also take their cue from the Bible.
It's what you say is biblical and what others say isn't. To my mind if it wasn't all a total fantasy, it would be black and white.
But now I also want to clarify that the Calvinist rejection of free will is about choosing salvation
Right, and of course you don't see any contradiction of choosing salvation and rejecting free will? You know, the thing that allows choice?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 4:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 5:07 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 578 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 5:20 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 579 of 882 (834910)
06-14-2018 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 577 by Faith
06-14-2018 5:07 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Faith writes:
No, it all does derive from the Bible itself, but people read with different degrees of attention and understanding and the relevant passages are not all in one place.
ie make what you want of it.
Again, I showed with those quotes that there's plenty of biblical support for salvation by grace and not works, and that is all I wanted to bring to your attention.
Any plenty of support that it isn't. Make what you want of it.
Eh? I'm saying we CAN'T choose salvation, right?
Language is a funny thing. Maybe I'm just too literal but when you said....
quote:
But now I also want to clarify that the Calvinist rejection of free will is about choosing salvation
...I ridiculously that that you meant you were choosing salvation.
And when you go on to say this...
quote:
God has to give us the spiritual perception to be able to choose salvation.
....i just thought you'd actually chosen to be saved?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 577 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 5:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 580 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 6:28 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 590 of 882 (834946)
06-15-2018 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by Faith
06-15-2018 3:07 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Faith writes:
I didn't say we can choose. God's offering a choice is not the same thing as people having the natural ability to choose.
When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meanneither more nor less.
The question is, said Alice, whether you can make words mean so many different things.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 591 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 592 of 882 (834950)
06-15-2018 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by Faith
06-15-2018 3:29 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Faith writes:
Does saying that God offers us a choice mean the same thing to you as our having the ability to choose? They seem to me to be saying entirely different things, but sometimes I forget I'm at EvC where who knows what anything is likely to mean at any given moment.
I'm not just commenting just on that particular quote of yours, it's the entire conversation - it's just such a fantastical work of pure imagination.
Quoting Humpty Dumpty from Alice in Wonderland is the nearest I can get to explaining how totally preposterous I find this whole portion of thread is.
I can't believe that grown-ups can 'think' this way.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:47 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 601 by foreveryoung, posted 06-15-2018 9:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
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