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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 586 of 882 (834933)
06-15-2018 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 552 by Faith
06-13-2018 9:06 AM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Would I feel any different if I were Bagheera or Kaa or more likely a member of the Bandar-log?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by Faith, posted 06-13-2018 9:06 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:10 PM jar has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 587 of 882 (834935)
06-15-2018 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 585 by Faith
06-15-2018 3:25 AM


Re: Grace and free will
Nothing came up that I recall about God's offering a choice to accept or reject salvation. Of course He does.
What you are saying is completely incompatible with Calvinism. Sorry, but you cannot have it both ways. If humans can choose, then their actions have an impact.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:25 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 588 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:07 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 588 of 882 (834940)
06-15-2018 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 587 by NoNukes
06-15-2018 9:02 AM


Re: Grace and free will
I didn't say we can choose. God's offering a choice is not the same thing as people having the natural ability to choose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by NoNukes, posted 06-15-2018 9:02 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 590 by Tangle, posted 06-15-2018 3:27 PM Faith has replied
 Message 596 by ringo, posted 06-15-2018 4:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 589 of 882 (834941)
06-15-2018 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 586 by jar
06-15-2018 8:05 AM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Would I feel any different if I were Bagheera or Kaa or more likely a member of the Bandar-log?
'
I don't know but I suspect it is most likely the frame of mind of a modern westerner.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 586 by jar, posted 06-15-2018 8:05 AM jar has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 590 of 882 (834946)
06-15-2018 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by Faith
06-15-2018 3:07 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Faith writes:
I didn't say we can choose. God's offering a choice is not the same thing as people having the natural ability to choose.
When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meanneither more nor less.
The question is, said Alice, whether you can make words mean so many different things.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 591 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 591 of 882 (834947)
06-15-2018 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 590 by Tangle
06-15-2018 3:27 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Does saying that God offers us a choice mean the same thing to you as saying that we have the ability to choose? They seem to me to be saying entirely different things, but sometimes I forget I'm at EvC where who knows what anything is likely to mean at any given moment.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 590 by Tangle, posted 06-15-2018 3:27 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 592 by Tangle, posted 06-15-2018 3:41 PM Faith has replied
 Message 595 by NoNukes, posted 06-15-2018 4:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 592 of 882 (834950)
06-15-2018 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by Faith
06-15-2018 3:29 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Faith writes:
Does saying that God offers us a choice mean the same thing to you as our having the ability to choose? They seem to me to be saying entirely different things, but sometimes I forget I'm at EvC where who knows what anything is likely to mean at any given moment.
I'm not just commenting just on that particular quote of yours, it's the entire conversation - it's just such a fantastical work of pure imagination.
Quoting Humpty Dumpty from Alice in Wonderland is the nearest I can get to explaining how totally preposterous I find this whole portion of thread is.
I can't believe that grown-ups can 'think' this way.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:47 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 601 by foreveryoung, posted 06-15-2018 9:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 593 of 882 (834951)
06-15-2018 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 592 by Tangle
06-15-2018 3:41 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Well, I quoted the Bible so you could see that I didn't make it up. All I asked you to do was acknowledge that fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by Tangle, posted 06-15-2018 3:41 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 594 by Tangle, posted 06-15-2018 4:19 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 594 of 882 (834956)
06-15-2018 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by Faith
06-15-2018 3:47 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Faith writes:
Well, I quoted the Bible so you could see that I didn't make it up. All I asked you to do was acknowledge that fact.
And I quoted Alice in Wonderland. Do you see the connection?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 9:50 PM Tangle has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 595 of 882 (834958)
06-15-2018 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by Faith
06-15-2018 3:29 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Does saying that God offers us a choice mean the same thing to you as saying that we have the ability to choose.
As a matter of fact, it does. I presume that God's offer does not result in his words returning to him void and without meaning.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 596 of 882 (834959)
06-15-2018 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by Faith
06-15-2018 3:07 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Faith writes:
God's offering a choice is not the same thing as people having the natural ability to choose.
That doesn't make a bit of sense. How can there be a choice where you can't choose?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:07 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 598 by Phat, posted 06-15-2018 7:14 PM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 597 of 882 (834966)
06-15-2018 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 551 by Tangle
06-13-2018 4:22 AM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Tangle writes:
Of course it's not the final answer, we've known for a long time that nurture is at least as important as nature. This is what I've been trying to tell you for a long time. Empathy is an evolved trait like all others and is the source of what we call morality. It's a brain function. It's not a voice from god acting on our heart. So can we put all that magical thinking to one side?
Once again you use process to claim prove the materialist view.
Yes, humans can have a huge affect on the empathetic tendencies of other humans for better or for worse. My Christian view is that it is our calling as humans to infect the world with that empathetic view. I would also add that it is about that empathetic view encompassing sacrificial love.
Your belief is that empathetic view simply evolved with no intelligent impetus. It is my view that it evolved as a result of a intelligence,(God), that created us with the desire that we would freely accept and find joy in that empathetic view.
Tangle writes:
In other words your 'god memes' source is empathy and consciuosness - both evolved traits - which allows us to develop into the people we are.
It is strictly a matter of belief whether or not God is part of that evolutionary process or not, either as an ongoing participant or as the initiator of the ability to evolve that way in the first place..

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2018 4:22 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 606 by Tangle, posted 06-16-2018 2:46 AM GDR has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 598 of 882 (834967)
06-15-2018 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 596 by ringo
06-15-2018 4:29 PM


Re: Grace and free will
ringo writes:
How can there be a choice where you can't choose?
Explain yourself further. Set up a scenario and show that what Faith is proposing involves no real choice.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by ringo, posted 06-15-2018 4:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 600 by NoNukes, posted 06-15-2018 7:55 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 642 by ringo, posted 06-16-2018 11:36 AM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 599 of 882 (834968)
06-15-2018 7:50 PM


Yes, I have two baskets of apples. A basket of red apples and a basket of green apples. You can choose whichever you want.
Here is your green apple.
"But I am a believer and I choose the red apple."
You get a green apple because I chose it for you.
NEXT!

Replies to this message:
 Message 602 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 9:38 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 600 of 882 (834969)
06-15-2018 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by Phat
06-15-2018 7:14 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Explain yourself further. Set up a scenario and show that what Faith is proposing involves no real choice.
Is that necessary? Is it really too difficult to understand that presenting a choice to a sentient being requires that the chooser be able to pick? And that offering something that cannot really be picked means there was no bona fide offer?
Why don't you illustrate that two plus two equals four? Or how about asking Faith to explain the conundrum that she has presented?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by Phat, posted 06-15-2018 7:14 PM Phat has not replied

  
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