Religion or Science - How do they compare?

But you are confusing separate things here and I don't know how to make that clear to you.

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Most of those would show no interest or desire for it at all, and any who seem to wouldn't really have that desire, just maybe a fleeting interest.

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That’s your assumption. But there are enough prominent deconversion stories out there to say that it is very unlikely to be true.And plenty of badly-behaving Christians out there who show no signs of regeneration. Not even understanding the Bible.

I have some sympathy for your position. You're left trying to explain the inexplicable.But it quite literally doesn't matter a damn to me, it's all Alice in Wonderland, so don't bother turning any more cartwheels on my behalf.

Well, there's no way I can see to change that kind of opinion; time will eventually expose the truth of the matter.

I'm not really doing cartwheels on anybody's behalf, but you've made me aware of ways this can be misunderstood that I had no idea was possible. I think I've explained it pretty well, but not well enough obviously.

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Well, there's no way I can see to change that kind of opinion

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The reason why there is no way to change it is that there is a whole lot of evidence. You yourself have provided large quantities.There are people who have believed - very strongly - and still changed their minds and had quite a lot of trouble for their pains.And there are people who certainly seem to have an interest but are thoroughly in religious matters as well as secular.These are facts that aren’t hard to find.

I'm sorry for the ways I fall into the flesh but some of what you object to is not that but quite biblical opinions you just don't like.There's no way to assess the other examples. The theology I consider to be Calvinistic says you can't lose your salvation so that would mean that no matter how deeply involved a person had been, his falling away is a sign that it was all of the flesh and he wasn't really born again. The reasoning I've seen about the Bible by such people certainly seems to confirm that explanation. But I also think there are probably some who have fallen away who will eventually come back because they really are born again and merely experienced a temporary attack of the flesh. But I don't know of course, nobody knows, that's why I say time will expose what it all really is.

What I'm saying Faith is that it's clear what Calvinism is, it's utter horseshit, but it's clear. Calvin says that a person's salvation or otherwise was predetermined before creation, so that's it, game over.You don't like that so, like everything else that doesn't match your personal belief, you simply make something else up to suit.

Predestination is biblical. Calvinism is biblical. There's no "game over" because nobody knows who is predestined. Once a person is solidly established in the faith we can suppose that person was predestined but that's the extent of our knowledge, and even in some of those cases we may be wrong. Those outside the faith could yet convert, there is no way to know until they do, and those who do were also predestined.And again the whole point of this emphasis in Calvinism is to underscore the biblical truth that we can't earn salvation, it is completely a gift of God. And again we can't even have genuine feelings and beliefs consistent with salvation without God's giving them to us as He gives the new birth to us so you can't say He chooses "in spite of" those things since they are generally a sign that He HAS chosen.I can't convince you I'm not making anything up I guess, but I truly am not. I've been up to my ears in this kind of theology for decades through my own church experience and through a bazillion sermons I've read and heard on the internet and elsewhere; I may be wrong about this or that but I'm not making any of it up.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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I'm sorry for the ways I fall into the flesh but some of what you object to is not that but quite biblical opinions you just don't like.

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i think you’ll find that I object to misrepresentations of the Bible quite frequently, too. And of course some of my objections to Biblical opinions are themselves Biblical.

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There's no way to assess the other examples. The theology I consider to be Calvinistic says you can't lose your salvation so that would mean that no matter how deeply involved a person had been, his falling away is a sign that it was all of the flesh and he wasn't really born again. The reasoning I've seen about the Bible by such people certainly seems to confirm that explanation

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Which is theology. The factual question of what actually happens is a different question.

Your claim that I misrepresent the Bible reflects your own lack of understanding.Theology is a codification of the truths of the Bible, which if correct would correctly explain the facts we are discussing. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Your claim that I misrepresent the Bible reflects your own lack of understanding.

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And there you go again, rejecting the Bible in your pride and arrogance.

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Theology is a codification of the truths of the Bible, which if correct would correctly explain the facts we are discussing.

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In your opinion.

Well one branch of your cult says it is. Well yeh, exactly, no-one knows and nothing anyone can do can change anything. Being 'solidly established in the faith' is irrelevant. You destiny was fixed before creation. There's nothing that you can do to change it; believe or not. Nope. No act or belief of man can change god's initial decision. You might as well be a Muslim Faith.

In a way our lives are predestined whether we know it or not anyway, all that's different here is that we're given a glimpse behind the scenes into God's plan. We have the same sense of freedom of choice or lack of it either way, there's no difference.Why does knowing a cause make a difference since you don't care about it anyway? Do you think you have total control of your own life? Or, to put it another way, doesn't life just more or less "happen" to all of us beyond anything we have to say about it? Was it John Lennon who said "Life is what happens while you're making other plans." Or was he quoting someone else? Anyway it's rather a profound truth I think.So when the Bible gives an explanation for why some people choose salvation and others don't, what's all the fuss about? The Bible gives us glimpses into God's judgments against nations too, and into God's methods of judgment, the reasons for it, all spelled out in His Law, but if we didn't have that information those terrible things would happen anyway. Since you don't believe the Bible you simply don't get to know why things happen but they happen to you just the same.If it's a horrible judgment then it's a horrible event whether we understand it or not, horrible in either case, but I for one appreciate getting to know why some things happen rather than just suffering the whims of fate as it were. And given the Biblical heads-up one COULD take measures to try to change one's fate you know. Prayer and repentance will change God's judgments against nations, and even against individuals. And if you "want to be in that number when the saints go marching in" you can petition God to be included and He will include you because He says He will. So why would you need to know if you're predestined or not. If you want salvation you'll get it and that means you were predestined to it; if you have no interest in it, don't believe in it etc, you won't, it's all the same either way except whether you know something about it or not.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

You can actually see the rationalisation at work in all that.You're talking yourself into believing that you're saved because you believe. That's the standard message of course and I suspect most varieties of Christian believe that. But that's not Calvinism.Calvinism is predestination without choice. The decision to save you or not was taken before the act of creation and can't be changed.
Best if you don't believe that one I'd say. Pick a nicer one.