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Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Religion or Science - How do they compare? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: You have concluded it is fiction. I disagree. My point though is that even if it is fiction they believed it to to historically accurate.
There is no reason to pay attention to it because we know its fiction. ringo writes: Of course it is relevamt. If they are knowlingly writing fiction then we have no conclusion to draw. From the texts it is clear that they believed what they were writing so we can accept them as wrong or accurate to whatever degree we like.
Again, whether or not they believed it was true is irrelevant. Our own conclusions should be based only on facts. It could be true even if they thought it was fiction - or it could be false even if they thought it was true.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: Absolutely. The thing is though that the messiah was not expected to be in any way divine. A messiah was expected to be a human figure that would lead them against their enemies, defeat them and rebuild the temple. Also, if they were going to make up a resurrection story they wouldn't have had Him barbecuing fish or doing the other human like things that He did. You're making my point for me. If you can kill a messiah, he's not the messiah. It's the ressurection that 'proves' the messiah. There is also no clear motivation of why they would do this. They never really understood His message until after the resurrection. Even after that, in the 1st chapter of Acts they are still asking about when He is going to restore Israel as a regional power. They had already assumed He was a failed messaih after the crucifixion. Why would they want to start it up again? It put them at odds with most of their friends and family. Do you really think they would do this for a lie?
Tangle writes: If I get a chance I'll answer this in the current thread on the subject. The problem, of course, is that he was supposed to come back again quite quickly in all his glory but they couldn't pull that trick off could they? He disappeared forever. Almost as though he'd died just like every other failed messiah.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: There is for me. It isn't a matter of opinion. There isn't enough evidence to conclude that it is historical fact.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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GDR writes:
Absolutely. The thing is though that the messiah was not expected to be in any way divine. A messiah was expected to be a human figure that would lead them against their enemies, defeat them and rebuild the temple.Tangle writes:
If I were to pray to have water turned into wine and it happened, (hasn't worked so far), it wouldn't be me performing the niracle but God working through me.
Right, and not perform strings of miracles then?GDR writes: Also, if they were going to make up a resurrection story they wouldn't have had Him barbecuing fish or doing the other human like things that He did.Tangle writes: Firstly there is no reasonable motive for them to do that, but also they would have gone with something more Jewish like in the story of the transfiguration.
Why on earth not? It's all part of the story.Tangle writes: Why on earth would they do that. If Jesus simply died with nothing further happening it would simply be the end of the story. They would have as the Jews did in other cases, gone on to another messiah who would hopefully get the job done in the manner that they had understood. Jesus did fulfill the establishment of the Kingdom but it was a world wide kingdom instead of a specified piece of real estate. He also rebuilt the Temple but it was in the hearts of those who His followers instead of a physical building. Not what they were expecting or looking for.
So they created the resurrection myth to fix the problem. Tangle writes: It doesn't have to be a lie, it could be something they believed to be true. Or just something they wanted to believe was true. Or it could just be a lie that they used to carry on with their beliefs. There's any number of ways to spin it. The very least likely being that it actually happened. As an atheist that is obviously correct. As a theist I see the latter as being most likely. It pretty much depends on our starting point.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: Even the charlatans that cook up fake healings say that it is God using them as a vessel or something similar. Now that is a truly crazy thing to say. Pretty obviously you performed the miracle.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Phat writes: Hi Phat I didn't really want to jump back into this thread but I did want to say something about this. Again, I believe that all gods are inventions and/or demons. Except One. Firstly it isn't about which deity we believe in. For example all Abrahamic religions at their root worship the same god. I would go further than that and say that all theistic religions worship the same god. Where we differ is in our understanding of the deity. What is the nature of that deity and what should it mean to my life and for the whole world for that matter. Obviously there are also differences within the same religion. Faith is prepared to worship a deity who would be prepared to support genocide and public stoning. I worship a deity who would under no circumstances do such a thing. These differences obviously come from differing understandings of how the Bible should be understood. Also, I have a problem with talking about the deity that we believe in. It really should be about the god that we have trust in and a want to follow in this life. I’ve used this quote before but the following is from CS Lewis’ The Last Battle.quote:Obviously Tash represents a deity who espouses hatred and Aslan represents a deity who espouses love. However Lewis’ point is that acts of love done in the name of Tash are actually done for Aslan and acts of hatred done in the name of Aslan are actually done for Tash. Belief is too often understood to mean that we give intellectual ascent to some doctrine. Belief should be more like a wedding vow when we say I do when we pledge faithfulness and loving service. I would also add that too often our religious adherence is based on what we can get out of it for ourselves, whether it be in this life or the next, when it should be about how we can serve our deity. I contend that the we as Christians are told that we can serve our God by loving our neighbour and by providing good stewardship to our planet and the creatures on it. That is my belief about the nature of God. That understanding of the deity can also be held by people of any specific religion. Edited by GDR, : to change titleHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Phat writes: I wouldn't include Tangle in that, although I agree with Bob Dylan when he wrote, "you got to serve somebody". An atheist obviously doesn't worship any deity as they deny the existence of one. So are you saying that you both seek the same GOD, namely the One Who is, while at the same time having a different understanding as to the nature of such a Deity? Tangle, further, seeks truth yet sees no need or reason to look for a God who is not there. So could all three of you still be looking for the same thing? Presumably though, any theist must have put some thought in to what they believe about the nature of what ever god they believe in, and what if anything that should mean to their life. It doesn't matter what name is attached to a deity, it is the nature of the deity that is important. As I pointed out in my last post even though Faith and I are both Christians we disagree about the nature of God as we follow Him. In both cases our beliefs might more closely be related to the nature of what a Muslim might believe about the nature of Allah. Certainly as Christians we do believe certain things such as the divinity of Christ, and so we can use Jesus as the perfect example of God's nature, but that does not mean that we can't come to the same understanding of the nature of God in other ways. My signature tells us what the OT tells us about what God hopes for us, and obviously it is really pretty simple. AbE It isn't the name that we attach to a deity, it is the nature of the deity and how it impacts our life that matters ultimately. Edited by GDR, : typo Edited by GDR, : No reason given.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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