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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1179 of 1484 (835492)
06-23-2018 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1175 by ringo
06-23-2018 3:31 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
There isn't a natural connction.
That's what we always say until we find one.
Let me give you an example from scripture then. King David committed the sins of seducing Bathsheba, his neighbor's wife, and when she got pregnant having the neighbor killed so he wouldn't find out. This is understood by most preachers I've heard to have been the cause of the death of his infant son who was born to Bathsheba, and the rape of his daughter Tamar by his son Amnon, and the murder of Amnon by his son Absalom and the attempt by Absalom to take his throne, followed by Absalom's death. There are no natural connections between the sins and their consequences here, they are all spiritual or symbolic, in that they involve sexual sin and murder.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1175 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 3:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1180 by ringo, posted 06-24-2018 2:28 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1182 by NoNukes, posted 06-24-2018 11:10 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1186 by Pollux, posted 06-25-2018 1:24 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1181 of 1484 (835551)
06-24-2018 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1180 by ringo
06-24-2018 2:28 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
A symbol is a symbol because it shares the same content or meaning as the thing it symbolizes. The sin was adultery and murder, the consequences were rape and murder.
One amazing thing about history as shown in the Bible is that history itself, events the4mselves, are symbolic of other things. The spiritual nature of the universe is unrecognized for the most part but it is real and staggeringly impressive.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1180 by ringo, posted 06-24-2018 2:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1190 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 11:38 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1183 of 1484 (835554)
06-25-2018 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1182 by NoNukes
06-24-2018 11:10 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
If you pay attention to your own life you might be able to recognize the kind of correspondence I'm talking about. Adultery and murder were King David's sins, I assume they are probably not yours, but whatever yours are, perhaps some you remember from your youth, you may be able to see God's dealings with them somewhere in your own personal history.
But the point if the example was just to answer ringo's claim that sin must have a natural consequence, like eating the wrong foods leads to heart attacks and that sort of thing.
I don't get your question about Lazarus and the rich man.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1182 by NoNukes, posted 06-24-2018 11:10 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1184 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2018 12:56 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1185 of 1484 (835557)
06-25-2018 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1184 by NoNukes
06-25-2018 12:56 AM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
I reread it although I know it pretty well anyway, but I still don't get what you are trying to say.
The rich man went to hell after Lazarus died. Is that what you are referring to?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1184 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2018 12:56 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1188 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2018 10:02 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1187 of 1484 (835559)
06-25-2018 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1186 by Pollux
06-25-2018 1:24 AM


Re: David's sins
We are supposed to learn from these things how the Law of God works. Our own children suffer for our sins, the people under a King suffer for his. David pleaded for them himself. When you realize that your own sins are going to cause your children to suffer it is a very horrifying thought. I think we'd all rather suffer for our own than have that happen. But it does happen. It's the way the moral law of the universe is wired. It's the same now as it is shown to be in the Bible. At least David knew he would some day see the baby who died in heaven.
But David suffered terrifically for all the consequences of his sin in the sufferings of his children. Probably worse than being stoned to death.
Satan can't do anything without God's willing or allowing it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1186 by Pollux, posted 06-25-2018 1:24 AM Pollux has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1191 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 11:41 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1189 of 1484 (835571)
06-25-2018 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1188 by NoNukes
06-25-2018 10:02 AM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
If you're going to insult me by suggesting I don't know what Jesus is saying I think you really do have to explain to me what you meant.
ABE: By the way, I don't remember things, NN, I don't know what our history has been except that we've been at odds for some time
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1188 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2018 10:02 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1192 of 1484 (835597)
06-25-2018 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1191 by ringo
06-25-2018 11:41 AM


Re: David's sins
What we learn is that your God id unjust.
The thing is, He's THE God, not just my God, and that means you are also necessarily under His justice, because there is no other justice, His justice runs the universe. Literally runs it, it's the Moral Law that is sketched out in the Old Testament that determines all the events that happen on this Earth. They are too complex and interwoven for us to track with any certainty, whether on a personal or a national or a global scale, but I think it's sometimes possible to identify cause and effect in our own lives, and on a larger scale when certain trends pile up we can begin to discern how things are going to play out in the future.
Although as spelled out in various biblical accounts it seems harsh to us I accept on faith that it is actually perfect justice and that believers will be able to appreciate that more completely when we're finally with Him. Those who reject Him and call Him unjust are in a sad position. Jesus would save you from it, however, if you like Him better than His Father. Which I think is ridiculous since they are One God together, but anyway....
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1191 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1193 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 5:59 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1196 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 12:03 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1194 of 1484 (835600)
06-25-2018 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1193 by ringo
06-25-2018 5:59 PM


Re: David's sins
Unfortunately your view is shared by a lot of people here, I hope not everyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1193 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 5:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1195 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 6:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1197 of 1484 (835610)
06-26-2018 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1196 by PaulK
06-26-2018 12:03 AM


Re: Justice
Calvinism is simply the truest interpretation of what the bible says. The sin nature is implied throughout the Bible and ought to be recognized even in our own personal experience it seems to me.
You disagree of course.
As usual you present it in such a way as to deny personal responsibility. We always have a choice at our own level, we can't know anything about God's level except what the Bible tells us, and to let it deprive us of personal choice is a big mistake. I feel reassured knowing that whatever happens to me has a just cause even if I don't understand it, and that I can talk to God about it and maybe begin to understand it. The idea that things just happen randomly is not at all reassuring, just makes us pawns of incomprehensible and unpredictable and unrectifiable forces. After this life our destiny is sealed, yes, but during this life we have lots of opportunities for changing in response to affliction, for reformation, for turning away from its cause, which means it does work as deterrence.
You don't know if you are chosen or not so what does it matter? If you have a desire to be freed from the sin nature you can be freed from it, that's what matters. If you have no such desire so much the less should it matter to you.
I think what you are missing is that our sins ARE infinite because they are sins against an infinite and holy God. We're made in the image of God, which is no light thing. Our sins had the "power" to cause the devastation and wreckage of the whole planet in the Flood of Noah and are building up to the final destruction of the planet. God takes us very seriously and takes sin extremely seriously. The whole point of the Bible is to teach us about God and how His justice and mercy work.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1196 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 12:03 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1198 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 12:47 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1199 of 1484 (835612)
06-26-2018 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1198 by PaulK
06-26-2018 12:47 AM


Re: Justice
You are making God into an image of human beings rather than the other way around.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1198 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 12:47 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1200 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 2:43 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1201 of 1484 (835615)
06-26-2018 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1200 by PaulK
06-26-2018 2:43 AM


Re: Justice
I’m not making God into anything.
Of course you are. No Calvinist sees it that way. I understand that you think your logical abilities, not to mention integrity, honesty and so on, are superior to any Calvinist's of course, but it's at least possible that you are wrong.
I’m just pointing out the implications of Calvinist theology. If Calvinism makes God out to be a monster that’s none of my doing.
It's entirely your doing. Calvinism does no such thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1200 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 2:43 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1202 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 3:18 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1203 by Tangle, posted 06-26-2018 3:24 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1204 of 1484 (835621)
06-26-2018 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1203 by Tangle
06-26-2018 3:24 AM


Re: Justice
Something can't be both predestined AND changeable. Pick one.
What is predestined from God's point of view may be changeable from ours, a matter of choice from ours, because we are blind to God's will. What we choose will be His will but we won't know that until it is firmly established.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1203 by Tangle, posted 06-26-2018 3:24 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1208 by Tangle, posted 06-26-2018 7:45 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1212 by JonF, posted 06-26-2018 8:41 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1205 of 1484 (835622)
06-26-2018 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1202 by PaulK
06-26-2018 3:18 AM


Re: Justice
The answer is simply in knowing that God is always righteous, good, just and trustworthy even when His judgments are so severe we can hardly bear the thought of them. We believe that because we believe the Bible that shows us that in so many ways. There's no way to prove any of it to you, you either believe the Bible's testimony to God's perfect justice, goodness and mercy or you don't.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1202 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 3:18 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1206 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 6:58 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1209 of 1484 (835626)
06-26-2018 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1208 by Tangle
06-26-2018 7:45 AM


Re: Justice
No, that is not what I said. From our point of view we can change but that isn't going to change God's predestination. Just think a little, Tangle, it isn't THAT hard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1208 by Tangle, posted 06-26-2018 7:45 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1216 by Tangle, posted 06-26-2018 8:50 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1210 of 1484 (835627)
06-26-2018 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1207 by RAZD
06-26-2018 7:37 AM


Re: Belief vs Reality
And of course you missed the point. All you say may be true but what that means is that Christians will not obey the law because it contradicts God's Law. We will either find ways to avoid it or if we can't and are met by it head-on we will have to suffer the consequences. That's the Reality, RAZD. That isn't exactly freedom of religion. But I don't think society cares about freedom of religion any more. Oh maybe for Muslims and Satanists.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1207 by RAZD, posted 06-26-2018 7:37 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1213 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 8:42 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 1220 by RAZD, posted 06-26-2018 10:23 AM Faith has replied

  
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