Christianity and the End Times

You seem to think the great history of Christianity only includes intellectual midgets rather than real scholars who would know the truth about how the Jews reckoned the counting of years. Not to mention how to read Hebrew and Greek and know what the text says.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Neither Onias nor Cyrus fits any of the criteria for Messiah the Prince, THE Messiah prophesied throughout the OT, which is what Daniel 9 is about.

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The only requirements in the text are being a messiah and a prince. Cyrus is both.Your additional requirements are simply your opinion.

The real scholars agree with me that Daniel 9 is about the period of the Maccabean revolt.If you have any real scholars - and that doesn’t mean people who make up things you like - who can show that the Jews had a 360 day year bring them on.Remember to show how they address the problem of the festivals moving around, so that Passover occurs in autumn as often as spring (for instance).

The requirements come from reading the WHOLE Bible, which is full of references to the nature of the Messiah who is to come, and that is THE Messiah in Daniel 9, It is truly absurd to think a couple of unknowns, one of them a Persian prince, could be the fulfillment of Daniel's amazing prophetic visions. Really, PK, get some perspective here. No scribe would waste ink on such a prophecy.

Oh I see, you are following some idiot modern "scholars" then. The ones who don't believe in prophecy so pretend Daniel was written after the events prophesied. Oh wow. No wonder this conversation is such a bust. So THEY say Messiah the Prince is Onias the High Priest? What a blasphemous joke.THOSE are the people w3ho are making up what they want to believe since they don't believe in anything supernatural and must fit the Bible tot their own ignorance.The fact is that the prophecies in Daniel are beautifully fulfilled in history, since all four empires prophesied have risen, and in Jesus Christ who is Messiah the Prince, so well fulfilled that we can see that there is one small part that hasn't yet been fulfilled, that Seventieth Week.

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The requirements come from reading the WHOLE Bible, which is full of references to the nature of the Messiah who is to come, and that is THE Messiah in Daniel 9,

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The text does not specify THE messiah. Thus it is only necessary to be a messiah. Cyrus qualifies for that.And I don’t think that a famous monarch, called the Lord’s anointed by Isaiah, with an important place in Jewish history should be considered a nobody.

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Really, PK, get some perspective here. No scribe would waste ink on such a prophecy.

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It’s just one event in the prophecy, not the focus. And I think that authorising the Jews to return to Jerusalem was pretty important, don’t you ?

Cyrus was a big frog in the Persian pond of his time but he is not known outside the pages of scripture whereas Jesus is known throughout the world, and the Messiah has to be a JEW, and a descendant of King David. Sheesh. Again, get some perspective here. Cyrus wasn't the only King who authorized the Jews to return and rebuild Jerusalem. Whoever the king was who sent Nehemiah was another, but I'd have to look him up.

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Oh I see, you are following some idiot modern "scholars" then. The ones who don't believe in prophecy so pretend Daniel was written after the events prophesied. Oh wow. No wonder this conversation is such a bust. So THEY say Messiah the Prince is Onias the High Priest? What a blasphemous joke.

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I don’t know who considers Onias to be messiah the prince. I don’t.
But your hate of modern scholarship does not diminish their knowledge or the skills.

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THOSE are the people w3ho are making up what they want to believe since they don't believe in anything supernatural and must fit the Bible tot their own ignorance.

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Yawn. Your nastiness is hardly convincing.

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The fact is that the prophecies in Daniel are beautifully fulfilled in history, since all four empires prophesied have risen, and in Jesus Christ who is Messiah the Prince, so well fulfilled that we can see that there is one small part that hasn't yet been fulfilled, that Seventieth Week.

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Yawn. Which is why you have to make things up to claim fulfilment, and keep insisting that your opinions dictate the meaning.Now instead of ranting and raving why don’t you go away and find real evidence that the Jews used a 360 day calendar without any corrections to keep it in line with the solar year.

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Cyrus was a big frog in the Persian pond of his time but he is not known outside the pages of scripture whereas Jesus is known throughout the world,

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Wrong. Cyrus is world-famous. Ever hear of the Cyrus cylinder ?

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...the Messiah has to be a JEW, and a descendant of King David. Sheesh

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Cyrus is a messiah according to the Bible. You can disagree if you like but your mere opinion isn’t going to change mine.

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Again, get some perspective here. Cyrus wasn't the only King who authorized the Jews to return and rebuild Jerusalem. Whoever the king was who sent Nehemiah was another, but I'd have to look him up.

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Cyrus provided the original authorisation, as you ought to know.

there are lots of little messiahs, men chosen by God for limited purposes. There is not going to be a major prophecy attached to them.ABE: I'd forgotten that Cyrus's decree to rebuild Jerusalem was prophesied by Isaiah in 44:28 and that is a major prophecy but it's about the rebuilding of Jerusalem not about Cyrus as a messiah.THE Messiah is to "save His people from their sins," not just rebuild the city. /abeThe seventy weeks STARTS with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, it specifically prophesies the coming of MESSIAH THE PRINCE, THE Mesiah prophesied throughout the OT as far back as Eden, it can't be Cyrus and it can't be Onias. That is so absurd it is hard to believe this conversation is happening.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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there are lots of little messiahs, men chosen by God for limited purposes. There is not going to be a major prophecy attached to them

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Where by attached to you mean having any role at all ? Because that seems pretty daft to me. Antiochus has a bigger part in the prophecy.

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THE Messiah is to "save His people from their sins," not just rebuild the city.

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The only thing about the prince messiah in the prophecy is that he will come after the first 49 years. That hardly shows that he has to be THE Messiah.

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The seventy weeks STARTS with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, it specifically prophesies the coming of MESSIAH THE PRINCE, THE Mesiah prophesied throughout the OT as far back as Eden, it can't be Cyrus and it can't be Onias. That is so absurd it is hard to believe this conversation is happening.

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The only absurdity is your idea that simply stating your opinions is any sort of convincing argument. The seventy weeks might start for instance with Jeremiah 30. Daniel 9 even starts with Daniel reading from Jeremiah. Or it might start with the presumed date of Isaiah 44. It doesn’t have to be a royal command.And again the text does not specify THE messiah. The messiahs only play a minor role in the prophecy anyway. Your assumptions are not facts. Just assumptions.

Oh now I get it. You're a comedy act. Have you applied to "Britain's Got Talent" yet?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Sure Faith, the Bible is just a joke to you. Thanks for letting us know.

Sorry, of course he is known to historians, I should have been clearer that I meant he is not generally known the way Jesus is, or even the way Genghis Khan is.

To bring this back from the thread Science or Religion, from Message 863: I said very clearly what is trivial, Paul, and it is far from your spin on it. It is your choice of two "messiahs" in the place of "Messiah the Prince" who is certainly Jesus Christ, who DID come to redeem His people and set up and eternal kingdom. And it DID happen.You've chosen two messiahs who could not possibly accomplish such a feat, who didn't come at the end of sixty-nine weeks of years as the prophecy requires, and ignored the one true Messiah the Prince who DID come at the end of sixty-nine x seven years, and DID "put an end to transgressions" and save His people from their sins. It DID happen, and millions have benefitted from it over the last two millennia, to whom it is certainly not a trivial thing but eternal life. You've simply failed to take into account the part that is not yet fulfilled, and the switch in context that makes it clear there is another fulfillment that is yet future that will finish the prophecy completely.Daniel 10 through 12 revisits the prophecy of Greece under Alexander's generals after Alexander defeated Persia, with a very detailed account of wars between Egypt under the Ptolemies and the Seleucids, toward the end of which Antiochus IV, who called himself "Epiphanes" arose and was defeated by the Maccabees. (Just as an aside, part of the story involves the daughter of one of the Antiochuses named Cleopatra, who is an ancestor of the famous Cleopatra).There is also a switch in context toward the end of this account which takes us far into the future and a final Antichrist who resembles Antiochus IV in enough ways to make him the model. This is where the final end times is prophesied. It seems to deal only with the nation of Israel -- though it's possible to interpret that differently, but if national Israel is the focus it fits with the same indications in the book of Revelation, and this is part of the argument in favor of a Rapture of the Church before the final days, since Christians don't seem to be part of the picture, only the Jews, who are now going to go through the Great Tribulation and fight against God's enemies. This is where the war of "Armageddon" comes in, all the nations of the world gathered together in the valley of Megiddo against Israel, which is put to an end by the second coming of Jesus Christ.While the descriptions in Daniel 11 of all the prophesied movements of the armies of Egypt and Seleucia have been fulfilled in reality in great detail, as recognized by historians, the events of Daniel 12 that deal with the very end times are not all that clear and await illumination as the time approaches, specifically relating to that dangling Seventieth Week.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.