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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 151 of 1748 (835908)
07-04-2018 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by PaulK
07-04-2018 6:49 AM


Re: Interim Impasse
But of course this is a sham.
Here's the prophecy about the fourth beast in Daniel 7:24
Dan7:24 writes:
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
PaulK writes:
The three who were uprooted are
Heliodorus - murderer and usurper of Seleucus IV. Defeated by
Antiochus IV
Demetrius - son and rightful heir of Seleucus IV (who managed to gain the throne later, but outside the relevant time period)
Antiochus - infant son of Seleucus IV, co-regent with Antiochus IV until his murder.
Here's Wikipedia on the Seleucid Empire on the first of your list, Heliodorus:
The reign of Seleucus IV Philopator (187—175 BC) was largely spent in attempts to pay the large indemnity, and Seleucus was ultimately assassinated by his minister Heliodorus.
Seleucus' younger brother, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, now seized the throne.
Heliodorus murdered Seleucus but was never on the throne. The little horn of Daniel 7 follows ten KINGS, Heliodorus was never a king.
Then we have Demetrius, second on your list, who even you admit fell outside the relevant time period. There were a number of kings named Demetrius but they all FOLLOWED Antiochus IV, after his death. So there was no Demetrius who was a king when Antiochus IV appeared, Again, the little horn of Daniel 7 follows ten kings, but Demetrius followed Antiochus. Note the bolded first line of the Wikipedia article:
After the death of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Seleucid Empire became increasingly unstable. Frequent civil wars made central authority tenuous at best. Epiphanes' young son, Antiochus V Eupator, was first overthrown by Seleucus IV's son, Demetrius I Soter in 161 BC. Demetrius I attempted to restore Seleucid power in Judea particularly, but was overthrown in 150 BC by Alexander Balas — an impostor who (with Egyptian backing) claimed to be the son of Epiphanes. Alexander Balas reigned until 145 BC when he was overthrown by Demetrius I's son, Demetrius II Nicator. Demetrius II proved unable to control the whole of the kingdom, however. While he ruled Babylonia and eastern Syria from Damascus, the remnants of Balas' supporters — first supporting Balas' son Antiochus VI, then the usurping general Diodotus Tryphon — held out in Antioch.
As for the infant son of Seleucus IV I couldn't find anything to suggest that he was ever on the throne and if he was it would have been after Antiochus Epiphanes.
Once again: the little horn of Daniel 7 follows ten kings. That didn't happen with any of your three candidates for the uprooted kings of Daniel 7.
Your claim is an absolute bust.
Again I say, you must rescind your claim that the little horns of Daniel 7 and 8 are the same or there is no point in continuing the discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by PaulK, posted 07-04-2018 6:49 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by PaulK, posted 07-04-2018 8:29 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 152 of 1748 (835909)
07-04-2018 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by PaulK
07-04-2018 6:49 AM


Re: Interim Impasse
duplicate
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by PaulK, posted 07-04-2018 6:49 AM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 153 of 1748 (835910)
07-04-2018 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Faith
07-04-2018 7:48 AM


Re: Interim Impasse
quote:
But of course this is a sham.
And that is just more of your false belittling of my points. Especially as you declared it impossible that both descriptions could fit the same man - even if you reject my explanation it is still pretty good.
quote:
Heliodorus murdered Seleucus but was never on the throne. The little horn of Daniel 7 follows ten KINGS, Heliodorus was never a king
That is what you get for relying on an article covering the entire history of the empire instead of looking at more detailed articles as well.
On his return from Jerusalem, Heliodorus assassinated Seleucus, and seized the throne for himself.
wikipedia
quote:
Then we have Demetrius, second on your list, who even you admit fell outside the relevant time period.
Another of your strange misinterpretations. Demetrius managed to take the throne and rule later, but that is a side-note. He is on my list as the rightful heir of Seleucus IV and therefore with a claim to be king. A claim that Antiochus IV denied him. It is a viable interpretation. You may disagree but that is just opinion.
quote:
As for the infant son of Seleucus IV I couldn't find anything to suggest that he was ever on the throne and if he was it would have been after Antiochus Epiphanes
As I said - and you obviously ignored - young Antiochus was co-regent with Antiochus IV at the start of the latter’s reign.
Antiochus seized the throne for himself with the help of King Eumenes II of Pergamum, proclaiming himself co-regent with another son of Seleucus, an infant named Antiochus (whom he then murdered a few years later)
Wikipedia
You really should remember that I do make the effort to get my facts right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 07-04-2018 7:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Faith, posted 07-04-2018 9:07 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 154 of 1748 (835911)
07-04-2018 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by PaulK
07-04-2018 8:29 AM


Re: Interim Impasse
A claim to be king is not being king.
However, I'll accept your interpretation and go on to other ways the two horns are not the same person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by PaulK, posted 07-04-2018 8:29 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by PaulK, posted 07-04-2018 11:09 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 155 of 1748 (835912)
07-04-2018 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Faith
07-04-2018 9:07 AM


Re: Interim Impasse
quote:
A claim to be king is not being king.
Being the rightful king - as Demetrius was - seems close enough to me.
And again, having a match this good is evidence that Antiochus is the person meant in Daniel 7.
And thank you for living down to my prediction. It’s nice having the moral high ground.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Faith, posted 07-04-2018 9:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 07-04-2018 3:17 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 156 of 1748 (835913)
07-04-2018 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by PaulK
07-04-2018 11:09 AM


Re: Interim Impasse
Being the rightful king - as Demetrius was - seems close enough to me.
And again, having a match this good is evidence that Antiochus is the person meant in Daniel 7.
And thank you for living down to my prediction. It’s nice having the moral high ground.
I admit it is much better evidence than I thought possible for your claims. I have to concede that much and apologize for assuming you didn't have any.
But it isn't good enough by the standards of scripture. Two of them are not reigning kings and the prophecy speaks of the little horn's arising among, or after, ten kings which certainly sound like established kings. Since in my scenario all this is yet future I can't answer it directly.
To make the Seleucid empire into the fourth beast of Daneil 7 does destroy the pattern of the prophecies, which foresees four separate empires succeeding each other, and always puts the Seleucids under the images of Greece which is the third beast of Daniel 7.
Also, you still haven't any reasonable timing to fit the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel 9, and of course I continue to object that your messiahs are utterly inadequate to the tenor of the prophecies. Messiah the Prince has to be Jesus Christ, and the sixty-nine weeks does point to His time and not the time of the Maccabees.
I'm still aiming to get the verses together that differentiate the two little horns and show that the prophecies continue far in the future, but that's going to take time especially since other things are interfering with my efforts.
But again, I can't answer your claim about the ten kings as long as you insist on the meanings you insist on. I think they are wrong, that they don't fit the prophecy at all, but as long as you hold to those interpretations I can't answer it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by PaulK, posted 07-04-2018 11:09 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by PaulK, posted 07-04-2018 3:55 PM Faith has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 157 of 1748 (835914)
07-04-2018 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
07-01-2018 4:00 PM


Lets Get Back To Marketing
jar writes:
It seems you don't like the word "marketing" but when someone says "My tonic will cure warts and make you feel 20 again", that is marketing. Whether the product is insurance or savings accounts or education or snake oil, when you tell people to try it that is marketing. Whether the goal is to make money, interest folk in a cause, help cure pimples, make them fall in love, reduce inventory, fill a stadium or the pews, it is marketing.
So let's apply marketing to Endtimes Christianity. We can agree that "end times" preaching has virtually always been with us. Can we also agree that everyone of us is, in fact, marketing an idea...an interpretation of what Christianity is all about?
If so one could argue that end times Christianity is preached in order to market product--driven by the fear and uncertainty in this modern world. On the other hand, quite a few Christians...more than a mere cult...believe in a second coming. What do you make of it?
Finally...the reason that I cling to the so-called dogma is that first of all I cannot believe that all of these people are either maliciously marketing an idea for profit nor that they are willfully ignorant. Granted they may be selling a book or two...(though some give them away) and the bottom line is the widespread
belief that Jesus will return and fix this thing once and for all.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 07-01-2018 4:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by jar, posted 07-04-2018 3:38 PM Phat has replied
 Message 160 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2018 3:53 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 158 of 1748 (835915)
07-04-2018 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Phat
07-04-2018 3:23 PM


Re: Lets Get Back To Marketing
Marketing "What's in it for me!" Christianity. "Let Jesus do it!"
It's always attractive to sell "Let the other guy do it!" rather than "Looks like I have to do it!"
And every single End Times product has been recalled.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 07-04-2018 3:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Phat, posted 07-04-2018 3:47 PM jar has replied
 Message 166 by Phat, posted 07-05-2018 9:37 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 159 of 1748 (835916)
07-04-2018 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by jar
07-04-2018 3:38 PM


Re: Lets Get Back To Marketing
but you seem to make it out to be an either-or proposition. Jesus is not simply a cosmic bellhop---we all know that. And I do not see where mainstream Christianity teaches that He is, either.
My problem with your belief is that you see Jesus as Once a great teacher.
Or am I again misrepresenting you?
AddbyEdit: When you were a kid you believed that God and your parents would help you. Do you still believe that God can help?(while admitting that there is no way to explain how?)
quote:
I remember on the drive home, all of us packed together in the car, mom and dad in the front seat and IIRC at the time, about 4 kids stuffed in the back, one of my parents asked me, Well, how do you feel now?
I think I can do what I need to do. I said, I know that you and GOD will help.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by jar, posted 07-04-2018 3:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by jar, posted 07-04-2018 4:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 160 of 1748 (835917)
07-04-2018 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Phat
07-04-2018 3:23 PM


Re: Lets Get Back To Marketing
Phat writes:
I cannot believe that all of these people are either maliciously marketing an idea for profit nor that they are willfully ignorant
So how do you explain your belief that evey other belief and non-belief is wrong? After all, if this is a numbers game, those others outnumber you by an order of magnitude.
Then of course you also admit that you only believe what you believe by an accident of birth.
So how does all that reconcile Phat?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 07-04-2018 3:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 07-04-2018 3:59 PM Tangle has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 161 of 1748 (835918)
07-04-2018 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Faith
07-04-2018 3:17 PM


Re: Interim Impasse
quote:
But it isn't good enough by the standards of scripture. Two of them are not reigning kings and the prophecy speaks of the little horn's arising among, or after, ten kings which certainly sound like established kings. Since in my scenario all this is yet future I can't answer it directly.
This seems a rather arbitrary criterion. It’s not in the text. The fact that three of the ten are uprooted by the eleventh rather suggests that they can’t have much of a reign.
But then this is the standard that says that a series of four empires, the last destroyed by God can be a series of four empires plus several others which don’t get mentioned, where the fourth is destroyed by humans but somehow comes back hundreds of years later. But it can’t be a slightly series of four empires which fits the text equally well, and doesn’t have all the additions.
It seems a rather flexible standard and apparently indistinguishable from Faith likes it.
quote:
To make the Seleucid empire into the fourth beast of Daneil 7 does destroy the pattern of the prophecies, which foresees four separate empires succeeding each other, and always puts the Seleucids under the images of Greece which is the third beast of Daniel 7.
That assumes that the empires are divided up the same way each time. Given the quite different imagery I don’t think that is guaranteed, the more so since Daniel 11 deals with the Ptolemies and the Seleucids as distinct kingdoms.
quote:
Also, you still haven't any reasonable timing to fit the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel 9
However I have a reasonable explanation and by my assessment the weight of evidence supports it. I’m still waiting for a sensible explanation of how you can shoehorn in a gap of 2000 years.
quote:
and of course I continue to object that your messiahs are utterly inadequate to the tenor of the prophecies. Messiah the Prince has to be Jesus Christ, and the sixty-nine weeks does point to His time and not the time of the Maccabees.
In fact my two messiahs are remarkably good fits and it is just silly to deny it. Cyrus is a messiah and a prince and prominent in the Jews return to Jerusalem (and he gets quite a lot of mentions in scripture). Onaias III is prominent in the events leading up to the Maccabean revolt and is murdered shortly before events fitting with the seventieth week of Daniel 9.
They are such good fits that they count as good evidence for my reading by any sensible standard. Your dismissal has no objective basis.
quote:
I'm still aiming to get the verses together that differentiate the two little horns and show that the prophecies continue far in the future, but that's going to take time especially since other things are interfering with my efforts.
So far I haven’t seen anything on either front worth considering.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 07-04-2018 3:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 8:17 AM PaulK has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 162 of 1748 (835919)
07-04-2018 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Tangle
07-04-2018 3:53 PM


Re: Lets Get Back To Marketing
I'll admit that this is a valid question.
But who said that the truth is a lottery and that every chance is equally probable?
Granted you will argue that I just so happen to believe that my belief is the winner.
And is it not ironic that the followers are not measurably or noticeably any different than the rest of the people on the planet.
I'll give you this point.
The apologists would argue, however, that Christians are no better than anyone else and that despite our weakness, His strength shines through. We have yet to see a widespread demonstration, however.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2018 3:53 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2018 4:48 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 163 of 1748 (835920)
07-04-2018 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Phat
07-04-2018 3:47 PM


Re: Lets Get Back To Marketing
I believe as I did then that I need to do it; Jesus or inspiration or parents can advise or teach or encourage but only I can do.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Phat, posted 07-04-2018 3:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 164 of 1748 (835921)
07-04-2018 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
07-04-2018 3:59 PM


Re: Lets Get Back To Marketing
Phat writes:
But who said that the truth is a lottery and that every chance is equally probable?
By inference, you did.
You believe that your belief is the truth, but you also agree that you only believe what you believe by an accident of birth, so...

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 07-04-2018 3:59 PM Phat has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 165 of 1748 (835924)
07-05-2018 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by PaulK
07-04-2018 3:55 PM


The same four empires in the prophecies
Finished. I may have to come back and do some mopping up though.
Image of lion from Babylon
But it isn't good enough by the standards of scripture. Two of them are not reigning kings and the prophecy speaks of the little horn's arising among, or after, ten kings which certainly sound like established kings. Since in my scenario all this is yet future I can't answer it directly.
This seems a rather arbitrary criterion. It’s not in the text. The fact that three of the ten are uprooted by the eleventh rather suggests that they can’t have much of a reign.
Biblical prophecy often includes distinctive differences and details to make it identifiable with the real situation but in this case all we got was "ten kings" with nothing to distinguish them from each other, so there is no justification for thinking they were anything but ten reigning kings.
To make the Seleucid empire into the fourth beast of Daneil 7 does destroy the pattern of the prophecies, which foresees four separate empires succeeding each other, and always puts the Seleucids under the images of Greece which is the third beast of Daniel 7.
That assumes that the empires are divided up the same way each time. Given the quite different imagery I don’t think that is guaranteed, the more so since Daniel 11 deals with the Ptolemies and the Seleucids as distinct kingdoms.
The different imagery nevertheless contains symbolism that identifies them as the same empire, which is what I want to demonstrate here:
(I'm including some biblical quotes as references to the different prophecies and their images at the bottom of the post)*
  • The First Kingdom/Empire:
    1. Babylon in Daniel 2: We know the gold head of the statue in Daniel 2 is Babylon because Daniel says so to Nebuchadnezzer when he interprets his dream to him:
    Daniel 2:38 ...Thou art this head of gold.
    2. Babylon in Daniel 7: Daniel has a vision of four kingdoms in the form of four different beasts, the first being a lion with wings that becomes a man.
    Daniel 7:3 writes:
    The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
    PaulK disputes the lion, certainly the winged lion, as a symbol of Babylon. I'll just claim that the following three kingdoms in the images of of Daniel 2 and 7 are clearly the same, and the two of Daniel 8 the same as the second and third of those two visions as well, and Babylon is a major image in scripture (Consider "Mystery Babylon the Great" of Revelation) besides being the empire that captured Jerusalem and under which Daniel served through at least two kings.
    CONCLUSION: Babylon is the first kingdom/empire represented in the two prophecies: Two prophecies, two different images, first image represents Babylon in both prophetic visions.
  • The Second Kingdom/Empire is identified in Daniel 2 as merely a kingdom that will follow Babylon. It is represented in the statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream as the chest and arms of silver.
    And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee
    The second kingdom in Daniel 7: represented by a bear raised up on one side:
    Daniel7:4 writes:
    And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
    Daniel 8 refers only to two kingdoms, but they are understood by evangelicalsw to represent the second and third kingdoms of the silver arms of the statue prophecy of Daniel 2 and the bear prophecy of Daniel 7: The first in this chapter is the second in the previous chapters:
    Daniel 8:3 writes:
    behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last....p
    Dan 8:20-21 writes:
    The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
    The ram is identified as the same kingdom as the bear in Daniel 7 and the silver arms of Daniel 2
    So the ram in Daniel 8 is now identified as the kingdom of the Medes and Persians, or Medo-Persia. Daniel served not only under two kings of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar, but under kings of Media and Persia, including the great Persian king Cyrus, which illustrates the same sequence as the first two images in the first two visions and focuses in on the second kingdom in Daniel 8. And besides its historical sequence, another way to identify that the second kingdom of the first two prophecies is Medo-Persia is by its twoness in each image: the two arms of the status, the bear raised up on one side, and the ram's horns one taller than the other, and in that image the taller one came up second, which reflects the historical fact that Persia was the stronger of the two kingdoms.
    CONCLUSION: Medo-Persia is the second kingdom/empire represented in the first two prophecies, the arms of the statue and the bear raised up on one side, and is the first of the two in the third prophetic vision of Daniel 8: the ram with one horn higher than the other.
  • The Third Kingdom/Empire
    The third kingdom is briefly represented in the four kingdoms of the statue of Daniel 2:
    Daniel2:40 writes:
    and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
    The third of the four animals of the vision in Daniel 7 has four wings and four heads:
    Daniel 7 writes:
    lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
    Daniel 8: writes:
    And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
    the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
    We know from history that this first king of Greece is Alexander the Great. He was followed by his four generals who divided up his conquered lands among themselves.
    CONCLUSION: The third kingdom/empire of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 is not named there but is named in Daniel 8 where it is represented by the goat that defeats the ram, the ram being identified as Medo-Persia. Its four horns that replace the one horn link it to the four wings and heads of the leopard in Daniel 7, and its following and defeating Medo-Persia which is clearly the second of the empires in Daniel 2 links all three together as Alexander's Greece. Daniel 8 identifies the four horns as the four Greek kingdoms into which it broke up after Alexander.
  • The Fourth Kingdom/Empire This is represented by the legs and feet of the statue in Daniel 2, the legs being of iron and the feet and toes a mixture of iron and clay, identified as a mixture of weakness and strength.
    In Daniel 7 the fourth beast is called Great and Terrible and has teeth of iron, which links it to the iron of the legs of the statue, identifying it as the same empire. It does not appear again in the prophecies. Daniel 8 and 11-12 focus on two of the kingdoms that were formed after Alexander died.
    CONCLUSION The fourth kingdoms of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are the same because of the iron in both images.
================================
* BIBICAL REFERENCES (These are from Blue Letter Bible):
1. Daniel 2: The statue in Nebechadnezzar's dream
Daneil2:31-33,38-42 writes:
Daniel 2:31 -33 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
Daniel 2:38-42 Thou art this head of gold. And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
2. Daniel 7: Daniel's vision of the four beasts during the reign of the Babylonian king Belshazzar:
Daniel 7:3-8 writes:
And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
{In the vision a man comes to explain the beasts to him}
Dan 7:17
These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
{And goes on to explain the fourth breast with its little horn in particular}
3. Daneil 8 Daneil "in the third year of the reign of Belshazzar" now has a vision of two beasts
Dan 8:3 writes:
Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last....
Dan 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
Dan 8:8-10 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
{a man appears to Daniel to tell him what these animals represent:}
Daniel 8:20-21 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
{We know from history that this first king of Greece is Alexander the Great. The horn is displaced bgy four horns as the vision progresses, which represent the four generals under Alexander after he died, which split his kingdom among them.}
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by PaulK, posted 07-04-2018 3:55 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 11:26 AM Faith has replied
 Message 181 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 2:51 PM Faith has replied

  
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