Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 181 of 1748 (835944)
07-05-2018 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Faith
07-05-2018 8:17 AM


Re: The same four empires in the prophecies
quote:
Biblical prophecy often includes distinctive differences and details to make it identifiable with the real situation but in this case all we got was "ten kings" with nothing to distinguish them from each other, so there is no justification for thinking they were anything but ten reigning kings.
And if it suited you you would argue the exact opposite, that they only have to be Kings.
In fact there is a distinction. Three are uprooted which surely means a brief reign at most. The practicalities of defeating three kings to claim the throne suggest as much as well.
quote:
If there is any question as to what this represents see the image I posted at the top: Babylon symbolized itself by the image of a winged lion.
Funny that you haven’t bothered to correct this when it is clearly a Persian symbol, and your idea that particular image represents Babylon is your invention.
quote:
Daniel 8 refers only to two kingdoms, but they are understood by evangelicalsw to represent the second and third kingdoms of the silver arms of the statue prophecy of Daniel 2 and the bear prophecy of Daniel 7: The first in this chapter is the second in the previous chapters:
That is an assumption and one that is far from certain. The very fact that we have only two beasts instead of four suggests that it may well be different.
quote:
So the ram in Daniel 8 is now identified as the kingdom of the Medes and Persians, or Medo-Persia. Daniel served not only under two kings of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar, but under kings of Media and Persia, including the great Persian king Cyrus, which illustrates the same sequence as the first two images in the first two visions and focuses in on the second kingdom in Daniel 8.
Ah yes, the fictional Darius the Mede. One of the reasons for thinking that Daniel was not written when it claims to have been written.
quote:
And besides its historical sequence, another way to identify that the second kingdom of the first two prophecies is Medo-Persia is by its twoness in each image: the two arms of the status, the bear raised up on one side, and the ram's horns one taller than the other, and in that image the taller one came up second, which reflects the historical fact that Persia was the stronger of the two kingdoms.
This is all subjective interpretation. The interpretation of the statue is especially questionable. You could as easily argue it meant a threefold division as a twofold.
I think I prefer the Medes for the second empire of the statue. That way you get (according to Daniel, not history) a sequence of four Empires each conquering and absorbing the next. Any other interpretation gets a bit messier. Also a short-lived Median Empire would better fit the claim that the second empire would be lesser than the first (Daniel 2:39)
Of course this doesn’t fit your interpretation but it is clearly a valid interpretation.
quote:
In Daniel 7 the fourth beast is called Great and Terrible and has teeth of iron, which links it to the iron of the legs of the statue, identifying it as the same empire.
But the real issue is whether they are exactly the same. If the fourth beast is the Seleucids as I claim and if the iron and clay represents the variations in the strength of the Diadochi kingdoms then the same link applies. A strong Diadochi kingdom would be represented by iron.
So to return to the main point, it is entirely possible that the second beast of Daniel 8 corresponds to the third and fourth beasts of Daniel 7. Thus this point does not rule out Antiochus as the little horn of Daniel 7.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 8:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 3:49 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 182 of 1748 (835945)
07-05-2018 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by PaulK
07-05-2018 2:19 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
Historically the Babylonian empire preceded the Persian empire. Its symbolism even if similar would have preceded Persia's. And the order of empires in the vision has to have Babylon preceding Persia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 2:19 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 3:54 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 183 of 1748 (835946)
07-05-2018 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by PaulK
07-05-2018 2:51 PM


Re: The same four empires in the prophecies
The two empires of Daniel 8 are not an assumption, the ram is Medo Persia, I proved it, the shared symbolism is quite clear. and the goat is Alexander's Greece, and the four horns of the goat are still Greece.
I'll trust the Bible about Darius the Mede. Historians thought for a long time that no such people as the Hittites existed, then they finally discovered them.
You are engaged in destroying known interpretations of the book of Daniel for no good reason. There's no reason to take anything you say seriously.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 2:51 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 4:04 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 184 of 1748 (835947)
07-05-2018 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by ringo
07-05-2018 2:19 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
The prophecies are NOT "based on easily y understood symbolism," you totally missed the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 07-05-2018 2:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by ringo, posted 07-05-2018 4:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 185 of 1748 (835948)
07-05-2018 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Faith
07-05-2018 3:43 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
quote:
Historically the Babylonian empire preceded the Persian empire. Its symbolism even if similar would have preceded Persia's. And the order of empires in the vision has to have Babylon preceding Persia.
But - to point out the problems of interpretation again - Babylon doesn’t need to be in the Daniel 7 prophecy.
But really shouldn’t this issue be on the main thread, not on a side branch created to point out that you chose to use a Persian image for Babylon ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 3:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 4:00 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 186 of 1748 (835949)
07-05-2018 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by PaulK
07-05-2018 3:54 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
Babylon IS in the Daniel 7 prophecy, therefore it needs to be there. God doesn't make mistakes.
Babylon preceded Persia.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 3:54 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 4:06 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 187 of 1748 (835950)
07-05-2018 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
07-05-2018 3:49 PM


Re: The same four empires in the prophecies
quote:
The two empires of Daniel 8 are not an assumption, the ram is Medo Persia, I proved it, the shared symbolism is quite clear. and the goat is Alexander's Greece, and the four horns of the goat are still Greece.
What a great victory for you. Proving a point that nobody disagrees with because it is explicitly stated in the text.
That’s a pretty good sign you can’t answer my points. Thank you for being so obvious about it.
quote:
I'll trust the Bible about Darius the Mede. Historians thought for a long time that no such people as the Hittites existed, then they finally discovered them
I tried to track that down once. Christian apologists gave no sources (hardly a surprise) and the closest I found was the idea that the Hittites were an obscure Canaanite tribe because the Bible said so. Which turns out to be mostly true, because Hittite is used - in English translations at least to refer to two different peoples, one of which IS an obscure Canaanite tribe.
quote:
You are engaged in destroying known interpretations of the book of Daniel for no good reason. There's no reason to take anything you say seriously.
If my interpretations better fit the text - as they do - then that should be a perfectly good reason to put them forward - for anyone who respects the Bible.
Of course those who subordinate the Bible to doctrine won’t welcome this. So much for Sola Scriptura.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 3:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 4:11 PM PaulK has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 188 of 1748 (835951)
07-05-2018 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Faith
07-05-2018 3:51 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
Faith writes:
The prophecies are NOT "based on easily y understood symbolism,"
Sure they are. That's how people could figure out what the prophet meant. You make the mistake of assuming that the prophecies were meant for you, and that only you can understand the symbolism. In fact, the prophecies were meant for the people they were given to. Your interpretations are just made up.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 3:51 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 189 of 1748 (835952)
07-05-2018 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Faith
07-05-2018 4:00 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
quote:
Babylon IS in the Daniel 7 prophecy, therefore it needs to be there. God doesn't make mistakes
And daring to disagree with you would be a mistake, would it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 4:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 4:12 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 190 of 1748 (835953)
07-05-2018 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by PaulK
07-05-2018 4:04 PM


Re: The same four empires in the prophecies
Denying what the Bible says is not respecting it. God wrote it and it's God you are objecting to/

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 4:04 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 4:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 191 of 1748 (835954)
07-05-2018 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by PaulK
07-05-2018 4:06 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
God wrote the Bible, I didn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 4:06 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 07-05-2018 4:15 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 194 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 4:21 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 192 of 1748 (835955)
07-05-2018 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
07-05-2018 4:12 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
Faith writes:
God wrote the Bible, I didn't.
Your ideas about prophecy are not in the Bible.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 4:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 193 of 1748 (835956)
07-05-2018 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Faith
07-05-2018 4:11 PM


Re: The same four empires in the prophecies
quote:
Denying what the Bible says is not respecting it
Exactly my point. That is why the text must come before doctrine.
quote:
God wrote it and it's God you are objecting to
And there you go denying what the Bible says.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 4:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 194 of 1748 (835957)
07-05-2018 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
07-05-2018 4:12 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
quote:
God wrote the Bible, I didn't.
Then why would it be a mistake for God to exclude Babylon from the Daniel 7 prophecy ? You didn’t give any reason, you just said it would be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 4:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 07-06-2018 12:16 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 195 of 1748 (835960)
07-06-2018 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by PaulK
07-05-2018 11:26 AM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
I changed the image of the winged lion in Message 165 to an image of a lion without wings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 11:26 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by PaulK, posted 07-06-2018 12:14 AM Faith has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024