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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 481 of 1748 (836596)
07-19-2018 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by Faith
07-19-2018 5:42 PM


Faith writes:
I think that "imaginary pulpit speak" is recognizable to Christian believers as describing their own personal experiences.
It's just a mantra. It's intended to reinforce the belief that was implanted literally at birth.
You really really really want it to be imaginary, though, don't you?
No. I want the opposite. Why would anyone not want the promise of everlasting life? It would be great if it was all true - well obviously not the deranged and perverted version you believe in but the Christian one of a loving god - that would be a good outcome.
To the point that you'll call millions of people insane who say they've experienced it personally rather than consider that maybe YOU get it all wrong.
What is 'it'? So far you've described mundaneity.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 5:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 6:29 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 482 of 1748 (836598)
07-19-2018 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 481 by Tangle
07-19-2018 6:02 PM


You've made it impossible for yourself to have the eternal life you say you want.
John 5:37-44 writes:
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2018 6:02 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by ringo, posted 07-20-2018 11:56 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 484 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2018 2:20 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 483 of 1748 (836610)
07-20-2018 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 482 by Faith
07-19-2018 6:29 PM


Faith writes:
"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life...."
"... ye have not the love of God in you."
Sounds like John is talking to you.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 6:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 484 of 1748 (836615)
07-20-2018 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by Faith
07-19-2018 6:29 PM


You've made it impossible for yourself to have the eternal life you say you want.
I thought it was impossible for a man to affect his own prospects for salvation. At least that's what Calvinist doctrine holds.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 6:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by Faith, posted 07-20-2018 2:45 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 485 of 1748 (836620)
07-20-2018 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 484 by NoNukes
07-20-2018 2:20 PM


No, it holds that we are personally responsible for our choices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2018 2:20 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 486 by Tangle, posted 07-20-2018 3:15 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 486 of 1748 (836631)
07-20-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 485 by Faith
07-20-2018 2:45 PM


*Real* Calvanists believe that salvation is predestined and there's nothing that poor humans can do about it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by Faith, posted 07-20-2018 2:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 487 by Faith, posted 07-20-2018 5:32 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 487 of 1748 (836642)
07-20-2018 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 486 by Tangle
07-20-2018 3:15 PM


That's from God's point of view. From our point of view we are responsible for the decisions we make and there is nothing stopping you from taking seriously the steps you must take to eternal life. .
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by Tangle, posted 07-20-2018 3:15 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by Tangle, posted 07-21-2018 2:40 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 489 by NoNukes, posted 07-21-2018 3:50 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 488 of 1748 (836661)
07-21-2018 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 487 by Faith
07-20-2018 5:32 PM


Faith writes:
That's from God's point of view. From our point of view we are responsible for the decisions we make and there is nothing stopping you from taking seriously the steps you must take to eternal life.
You think god is wrong?
His viewpoint is that your destiny was predetermined before you were born and there's nothing anyone can do about it.
Your viewpoint is that you can change your destiny. It seems that your arrogance extends as far as telling god he's wrong. You know better.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by Faith, posted 07-20-2018 5:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 489 of 1748 (836662)
07-21-2018 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 487 by Faith
07-20-2018 5:32 PM


That's from God's point of view. From our point of view we are responsible for the decisions we make and there is nothing stopping you from taking seriously the steps you must take to eternal life. .
But unless you are arguing that your fallen mind is right and God is wrong, your statement is ridiculous. Beyond that, your own arguments in the past have warned that man can do nothing to affect his salvation and that Catholics are wrong to think otherwise.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by Faith, posted 07-20-2018 5:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by Faith, posted 07-21-2018 5:20 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 490 of 1748 (836669)
07-21-2018 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 489 by NoNukes
07-21-2018 3:50 AM


But unless you are arguing that your fallen mind is right and God is wrong, your statement is ridiculous. Beyond that, your own arguments in the past have warned that man can do nothing to affect his salvation and that Catholics are wrong to think otherwise.
As often happens I can't imagine where you get such notions about what I've supposedly said. I'd guess it's a context problem of some sort but since you don't quote me I don't know, I can only guess.
What I said is true: we have the responsibility for our choices; God's sovereignty over all things is another level of reality that doesn't change that fact of our having responsibility within the scope of our knowledge.
I suppose your remark about what Catholics believe is a garbled misunderstanding of the Reformation tenet of salvation by faith alone and not by works? {"By grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone" and "not by works (good deeds) lest any man should boast."}
But that's not what I'm talking about here. Tangle says of course he wants eternal life so I'm saying he has the responsibility to seek it if that is so, and that means he has the responsibility to find out that salvation is by faith alone and to seek that faith. If we really want to be born again although we can't do it ourselves we can seek it from God, we can read the scripture to understand what it means, we can pray God would give it to us. "Whoever comes unto Me I will not turn away." Anyone who really does that in sincerity won't be turned down. That's scriptural.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by NoNukes, posted 07-21-2018 3:50 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by Tangle, posted 07-21-2018 7:28 AM Faith has replied
 Message 504 by NoNukes, posted 07-21-2018 12:15 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 491 of 1748 (836675)
07-21-2018 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 490 by Faith
07-21-2018 5:20 AM


Tangle writes:
Tangle says of course he wants eternal life so I'm saying he has the responsibility to seek it if that is so, and that means he has the responsibility to find out that salvation is by faith alone and to seek that faith.
But god has aready predestined whether I get eternal life or not. Nothing I can do can change it apparently.
If we really want to be born again although we can't do it ourselves we can seek it from God, we can read the scripture to understand what it means, we can pray God would give it to us. "Whoever comes unto Me I will not turn away." Anyone who really does that in sincerity won't be turned down. That's scriptural.
Fine, then pick one. Either it's predestined or I can change my destiny. Can't have both. Personally, I'd pick the scriptural stuff, at least that makes some kind of internal sense.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by Faith, posted 07-21-2018 5:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 492 by Faith, posted 07-21-2018 7:42 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 492 of 1748 (836676)
07-21-2018 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 491 by Tangle
07-21-2018 7:28 AM


No, you're talking what is called "hyperCalvinism," not true Calvinism. If you really want eternal life you can seek it and find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 491 by Tangle, posted 07-21-2018 7:28 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by dwise1, posted 07-21-2018 8:11 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 494 by Tangle, posted 07-21-2018 8:14 AM Faith has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 493 of 1748 (836678)
07-21-2018 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by Faith
07-21-2018 7:42 AM


"Not a TRUE Calvinist." Gee, why didn't we see that one coming?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by Faith, posted 07-21-2018 7:42 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 494 of 1748 (836680)
07-21-2018 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by Faith
07-21-2018 7:42 AM


Faith writes:
No, you're talking what is called "hyperCalvinism," not true Calvinism. If you really want eternal life you can seek it and find it.
So 'ordinary' Calvinists don't believe in predestination now? Including you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by Faith, posted 07-21-2018 7:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by Faith, posted 07-21-2018 8:23 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 495 of 1748 (836682)
07-21-2018 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 494 by Tangle
07-21-2018 8:14 AM


Predestination doesn't affect your personal responsibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by Tangle, posted 07-21-2018 8:14 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by jar, posted 07-21-2018 8:28 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 497 by Tangle, posted 07-21-2018 8:37 AM Faith has replied
 Message 501 by Phat, posted 07-21-2018 9:24 AM Faith has not replied

  
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