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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 31 of 441 (836764)
07-22-2018 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Percy
07-21-2018 12:04 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
All that is just sophistry to rationalize killing a developing human being. By your standard it's OK to kill the child minutes before birth because it hasn't yet taken its first breath.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Percy, posted 07-21-2018 12:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2018 6:27 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 33 by Percy, posted 07-23-2018 3:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 32 of 441 (836769)
07-22-2018 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
07-22-2018 6:12 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Possibly for the first time I find myself agreeing with Faith.
I'm not anti-abortion and I don't call it murder, but we are intentionally ending a life. It's just something we have to live with ourselves over and not try to fool ourselves that it's ok for some semi-arbitrary reason like a 12 week date.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 07-22-2018 6:12 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 07-23-2018 3:41 PM Tangle has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 33 of 441 (836867)
07-23-2018 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
07-22-2018 6:12 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
All that is just sophistry to rationalize killing a developing human being. By your standard it's OK to kill the child minutes before birth because it hasn't yet taken its first breath.
It isn't my standard. I'm not a Bible believer, remember. I'm just citing where the Bible says that life begins with the first breath. As I just said in the message you replied to, at best the Bible is equivocal about when a fetus is a human being, saying different things in different places. But the earliest reference, and therefore certainly the most reliable, is where Genesis says taking a breath defines life. If you disagree take it up with the Bible, not me. My responsibility ends at keeping you from ignoring certain Biblical passages and pointing out that the what the Bible says is not unequivocal.
I've been arguing the highly ambiguous Bible position because you're a Bible believing Christian. I have not been arguing my own personal beliefs which are not taken from the Bible.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Typo, plus add a sentence to the end of the first paragraph.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 07-22-2018 6:12 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 34 of 441 (836868)
07-23-2018 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Tangle
07-22-2018 6:27 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Tangle writes:
I'm not anti-abortion and I don't call it murder, but we are intentionally ending a life. It's just something we have to live with ourselves over and not try to fool ourselves that it's ok for some semi-arbitrary reason like a 12 week date.
I've never figured out an answer myself. My thoughts run generally along these lines which only raise more questions:
  • A sperm is not human life. Why? Just because it hasn't yet fertilized an egg?
  • An egg is not human life. Why? Just because it hasn't yet been fertilized by a sperm?
  • A sperm and egg on the verge of fertilization is not human life. Why, since in another instant the egg will be fertilized.
  • A fertilized egg that does not implant in the uterus is...what? Human life or not? We certainly have no concerns about it as it is washed away, so since we're so concerned about human life this implies that an unimplanted fertilized egg is not human life.
  • A fertilized egg that does implant in the uterus is...what? Human life or not? Does implantation determine when human life begins? That seems an odd criteria. Why should implantation be the determination? Shouldn't it be fertilization? But in that case why the lack of concern about an unimplanted fertilized egg? Is it just a case of practicality because of the difficulty of knowing when there's an umimplanted fertilized egg? But if practicality governs our level of concern for human life at this stage, why not at other stages? Is it the unknowability that justifies our lack of concern about the human life that is an unimplanted fertilized egg? Is it something else? Are we wrong to have no concern for an unimplanted fertilized egg?
  • A fertilized egg embedded in a uterus plus a placenta plus a containing human female plus nine months of gestation is definitely a human life.
So when does human life begin?
The details of thinking through these issues change with each attempt, and I never arrive at any definite answer.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2018 6:27 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 4:19 PM Percy has replied
 Message 40 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2018 5:09 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 35 of 441 (836871)
07-23-2018 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Percy
07-23-2018 3:41 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
We can only have concern for what we know, and that is that a growing embryo will become a fullfledged human being if we don't kill it. We can't be concerned about something at the level of a just-fertilized egg. Yes it is a practical matter. Yes I'm sure they are human life but probably flawed, deformed, would probably be stillborn if they implanted and grew. When a miscarriage occurs after enough time in a wanted pregnancy to anticipate the birth of a baby, then the parents are pretty sad about it. None of this justifies willfully taking its life.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 07-23-2018 3:41 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2018 4:39 PM Faith has replied
 Message 51 by Percy, posted 07-24-2018 9:48 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 441 (836872)
07-23-2018 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
07-23-2018 4:19 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
We can only have concern for what we know, and that is that a growing embryo will become a fullfledged human being if we don't kill it.
You skipped some steps. You just argued that a growing embryo is a potential human life and then jumped to a conclusion based on not ending a human life.
If I skipped some more steps I could make a case against all contraceptive means including abstinence are unjustified. I would not do that because that would be stupid.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 4:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 4:45 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 48 by Percy, posted 07-24-2018 8:55 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 37 of 441 (836874)
07-23-2018 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by NoNukes
07-23-2018 4:39 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
I think there may be some problems with contraception from a Christian point of view, but I'm not going to argue about that. I'd rather start where we know we've got a growing baby, where we know we're killing a living human being.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2018 4:39 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 07-23-2018 5:01 PM Faith has replied
 Message 42 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2018 5:26 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 38 of 441 (836875)
07-23-2018 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
07-23-2018 4:45 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
I'd rather start where we know we've got a growing baby, where we know we're killing a living human being.
Don't lose the plot here. The point of the thread is that evangelicals never used to see it that way. They saw it as the Bible sees it - that the fetus is not a "human being".
The change in their policy came about the same time that abortion became a safe and accepted medical procedure. It was a reaction to reality, not a reflection of doctrine.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 4:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 5:06 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 39 of 441 (836876)
07-23-2018 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
07-23-2018 5:01 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
I disagree with that supposed biblical doctrine but killing unborn babies at the rate of fifty million since Roe v Wade, or probably more by now, is not defensible, period.
Again, because we KNOW it's a growing baby.
And I'd have to ask if you are talking about all Christian denominations or perhaps just the liberal ones. NEver mind, I remember you mentioned Baptists.
Before Roe v Wade I'd also doubt it was a prominent enough issue in the minds of Christians to have a clear doctrinal position on it anyway.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 07-23-2018 5:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 07-23-2018 5:25 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 40 of 441 (836877)
07-23-2018 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Percy
07-23-2018 3:41 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Percy writes:
So when does human life begin?
The only point in the process we can name as a definitive start point of human life is conception. At that point we know a full human will emerge if everything goes to plan. The rest is rationalisation.
The details of thinking through these issues change with each attempt, and I never arrive at any definite answer.
I think that's because there is no 'answer', if we're honest, we know we're rationalising to make us feel better about something we know in our guts is a wrong.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 07-23-2018 3:41 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 07-24-2018 9:24 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 60 by Taq, posted 07-26-2018 5:37 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 441 (836879)
07-23-2018 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
07-23-2018 5:06 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
I disagree with that supposed biblical doctrine...
I'll point out again that it's the evangelical viewpoint that you're disagreeing with.
Faith writes:
... but killing unborn babies at the rate of fifty million since Roe v Wade, or probably more by now, is not defensible, period.
And I'll point out again that I'm not defending it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 5:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 6:37 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 441 (836880)
07-23-2018 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
07-23-2018 4:45 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
I think there may be some problems with contraception from a Christian point of view, but I'm not going to argue about that. I'd rather start where we know we've got a growing baby, where we know we're killing a living human being.
You are still skipping the steps where the potential human being becomes a human being and pretending not to do that. I know you'd rather start with your conclusion, but that's nonsense.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 4:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 6:26 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 43 of 441 (836884)
07-23-2018 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
07-23-2018 5:26 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
It's a human being from conception. All this hairsplitting sophistry is what is nonsense. I'm not skipping over anything. I'm just saying we are responsible for what we KNOW, not what we don't know. If the fertilized egg doesn't implant then it was a human life that died of natural causes. That was the context, and if we are not aware of any of it we have no responsibility for it or any reaction to it and it's all just a point of sophistry that means nothing. But when we have a known pregnancy we know it's a developing human being. If it dies of natural causes after we know this then the normal reaction is to mourn. We have n o cause at any point to willfully kill it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2018 5:26 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 44 of 441 (836886)
07-23-2018 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
07-23-2018 5:25 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
I should have said that the unborn child's being the property of the father has nothing to do with whether it is a living human being and it makes no sense that anyone ever used that as an argument for abortion.
You say you aren't for abortion, but you also aren't against it so that's what I keep responding to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 07-23-2018 5:25 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 07-23-2018 6:54 PM Faith has replied
 Message 46 by jar, posted 07-23-2018 8:14 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 45 of 441 (836889)
07-23-2018 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
07-23-2018 6:37 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
I should have said that the unborn child's being the property of the father has nothing to do with whether it is a living human being...
But of course it does. It's regarded like an ox - a living being and a valuable one but not a human one.
Faith writes:
... and it makes no sense that anyone ever used that as an argument for abortion.
It's not an argument "for" abortion. It just denies the "human" argument against abortion. It's what Judaism has always taught and apparently it's what evangelical Christianity taught until recently. And that isn't surprising because it's what the Bible says.
And if you were honest you would recognize that. You don't advocate executing women who have abortions, so you don't honestly consider abortion murder - so you don' t honestly consider the unborn fetus human.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 6:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 12:27 AM ringo has replied

  
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