Christianity and the End Times

You might start by believing that He actually exists in this current realm rather than simply as a character in books. It means that belief does not have to require evidence. Of course, you could prefer that God as you understand Him would rather you do it yourself. We can discuss John more later...I must run off to work.

As has been shown over and over again, Calvinists themselves espouse what you call here hyperCalvinism. You have in previous conversations confirmed that by labeling actual quotes of Calvinist doctrine as hyperCalvinism. The doctrine that is Calvinism is contradicted by Biblical verses that you yourself have quoted among others. Fortunately, nobody can live in a way that Calvinism requires without doing violence to their Biblical beliefs, and most Christians don't even try to do so. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

True Calvinism does not interfere with living whatever way you live

How Phat? How does a supernatural creature exist in this current realm and how could anyone tell? Correct, a belief does not require any evidence, but what you suggest goes beyond belief. You suggest others should strive for some communion with Jesus.How?

I agree because the doctrine of Calvinism is best served by ignoring it completely and by operating as you are charged to by numerous verses in the New Testament. I don't know too many other Christian doctrines best served by acting as if they do not exist, but I'll bet you can show me some.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

NN, you are going to have to explain how you think the doctrine of predestination affects anything in a person's daily life. (I mainly mean an unbeliever because a believer may be motivated by it to live more fraithfully to Christ).Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I don't have to explain that. The doctrine of predestination is something that most folks to not believe in or even think about. If we did believe in it as a society, then our entire system of responsibility and accountability would be called into serious question. We act as if punishment can really deter people. If the truth is that actually punishment does no such thing, then punishment would be immoral. It would just be revenge. And vengeance belongs to God, not humans. Everyone may have one motivation or another. Yes Christians may be motivated by Christ. Non-Christians may be motivated by nationalism, duty, need for respect, kinship with their fellow man, love, hate, etc. Just what kind of ridiculous question is this? What amount of self-centered thinking could prompt a question like this one which depicts your fellow humans as so inferior to you.Your argument and question is a strong indictment of the idea of predestination. If in fact all of our lives and actions are predestined, it would be necessary for societies function that we ignore that possibility. But for a Christian, doing that makes life a farce in a way that it does not for non-Christians. The Bible tells us that our choices do matter. Jesus tells us that. But the fact that God knows better makes reality a complete lie.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Well, I can't convince you, and I find Calvinism hard to argue myself anyway, but there are thousands of Calvinists out there who would recognize what you are saying as sheer nonsense.

• First, again the concept of predestination is Biblical, not something Calvin made up.
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• Second, it's applied to salvation and really nothing else at all in scripture. And
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• Third, at least because it's pointed to salvation above all, your idea about how it would supposedly affect society makes no sense.

But back to my own point, you seem not have thought at all about the fact that since we know absolutely nothing about who is predestined for what, the concept couldn't possibly affect anything in anybody's life let alone society at large, with the exception of believers who can find it reassuring in relation to our own salvation.Anyway if you're ever interested in hearing more about all this from Calvinist heologians and pastors, there are speakers at Sermon Audio dot com on Predestination, and on Calvinism and no doubt on Election and other Calvinistic tenets. I haven't heard any of them, I just looked them up for this post, but there are some really good preachers dealing with this subject there, some of my all time favorites, and I need to hear some of them on these subjects myself. Alan Cairns, John MacArthur, Voddie Baucham, James White, Paul Washer. A. W Pink's book on God's Sovereignty is read over many sermons, and I love Pink but that's way too much to listen to.Here's the first page on PredestinationAnd here's the one on CalvinismAs I'm typing this I'm listening to the panel discussion on Election and Predestination at John MacArthur's church, which promises to get quickly to the point.Although you probably wouldn't be persuaded by any of this it might at least convince you that you have an overly simplistic idea of what Calvinism is.

A few people here - I think Phat was one of them - have said that they'd be afraid to be an atheist because they'd immeditely go out a rapin' and a murderin'. Really stupid but there you go.Seems to me that predestination is exactly the same situation. It doesn't matter whether you're a sinner or a saint, you can't change your destiny.Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

I have thought about it. What makes you even say that. As I have said repeatedly it is not the fact that we don't know the future as it is that our actions are actually futile that causes the problem.How can you even tell Tangle that he has just made a statement that forfeits his salvation when nothing he does makes a bit of difference? What lesson should he take from such a warning? The combination of predetermination and election from the dawn of time makes all things ultimately futile and thereby in conflict with Jesus message. You can moderate that evil a little by saying that predestination is just foreknowledge of events. I some sources attribute that position to Calvin, but most Calvinist reject such a thing and say that God actually made things that way. I've invested that time already. I am not likely to do it again.

How on earth are our actions futile? That's what makes no sense. We know we are responsible for our choices BY THE BIBLE which also teaches about election and predestination and all that. everything we do counts the same as if we were Arminians instead of Calvinists. I really don't get where you come up with this notion.Where did I say Tangle forfeited his salvation? I've said over and over that he can still be saved.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

It's the GOD Calvin markets that is evil, vile and despicable as well as the theology. Calvinism is without a doubt the the most vile religion worshiping the most vile God ever marketed by man.

You must be a Reform Calvinist.

Apparently then, you left your workstation logged in and an idiot snuck into your house and posted this gem using your account. Let me know if you need an actual link.

I had to search to find the post, Message 482.What I am saying there is that he keeps rejecting and denying everything that would lead him to salvation, so of course he is not doing what is necessary to receive the eternal life he says he wants. So I tell him there are things he can do to have eternal life if he is really interested. As I keep saying, in the end we are responsible for the choice, we can accept or reject it, and nobody knows whether Tangle is predestined to salvation or not. I don't get your problem.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.