Christianity and the End Times

That's from God's point of view. From our point of view we are responsible for the decisions we make and there is nothing stopping you from taking seriously the steps you must take to eternal life. . Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

As often happens I can't imagine where you get such notions about what I've supposedly said. I'd guess it's a context problem of some sort but since you don't quote me I don't know, I can only guess.What I said is true: we have the responsibility for our choices; God's sovereignty over all things is another level of reality that doesn't change that fact of our having responsibility within the scope of our knowledge.I suppose your remark about what Catholics believe is a garbled misunderstanding of the Reformation tenet of salvation by faith alone and not by works? {"By grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone" and "not by works (good deeds) lest any man should boast."}But that's not what I'm talking about here. Tangle says of course he wants eternal life so I'm saying he has the responsibility to seek it if that is so, and that means he has the responsibility to find out that salvation is by faith alone and to seek that faith. If we really want to be born again although we can't do it ourselves we can seek it from God, we can read the scripture to understand what it means, we can pray God would give it to us. "Whoever comes unto Me I will not turn away." Anyone who really does that in sincerity won't be turned down. That's scriptural.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

No, you're talking what is called "hyperCalvinism," not true Calvinism. If you really want eternal life you can seek it and find it.

Predestination doesn't affect your personal responsibility.

Since you can't know what is predestinated for you all you can do is what you would do anyway. In other words it makes absolutely no difference to one's daily life.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Calvinists are big on evangelism which wouldn't be the case with your kind of straw man hyperCalvinism. And guess what, works FOLLOW and are motivated by faith.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Predestination is BIBLICAL, election is BIBLICAL, Calvin merely discussed it in his theology, but it was also taught by Luther and all the other Reformers. What you all are arguing with is the usual "hyperCalivinism." It is certainly true that whatever God has decreed can't be broken, but again, since we don't have a clue about what He has decreed in any individual's case, at least before they show unmistakable evidence of being born again, then we simply try to persuade people of the gospel and hope they will be saved. If anyone has a desire to be saved they certainly can be. If someone has absolutely no belief, no faith, and no interest in the things of God throughout life until death THEN we can say God predestined them to Hell, but not before.
" Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

True Calvinism does not interfere with living whatever way you live

NN, you are going to have to explain how you think the doctrine of predestination affects anything in a person's daily life. (I mainly mean an unbeliever because a believer may be motivated by it to live more fraithfully to Christ).Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Well, I can't convince you, and I find Calvinism hard to argue myself anyway, but there are thousands of Calvinists out there who would recognize what you are saying as sheer nonsense.

• First, again the concept of predestination is Biblical, not something Calvin made up.
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• Second, it's applied to salvation and really nothing else at all in scripture. And
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• Third, at least because it's pointed to salvation above all, your idea about how it would supposedly affect society makes no sense.

But back to my own point, you seem not have thought at all about the fact that since we know absolutely nothing about who is predestined for what, the concept couldn't possibly affect anything in anybody's life let alone society at large, with the exception of believers who can find it reassuring in relation to our own salvation.Anyway if you're ever interested in hearing more about all this from Calvinist heologians and pastors, there are speakers at Sermon Audio dot com on Predestination, and on Calvinism and no doubt on Election and other Calvinistic tenets. I haven't heard any of them, I just looked them up for this post, but there are some really good preachers dealing with this subject there, some of my all time favorites, and I need to hear some of them on these subjects myself. Alan Cairns, John MacArthur, Voddie Baucham, James White, Paul Washer. A. W Pink's book on God's Sovereignty is read over many sermons, and I love Pink but that's way too much to listen to.Here's the first page on PredestinationAnd here's the one on CalvinismAs I'm typing this I'm listening to the panel discussion on Election and Predestination at John MacArthur's church, which promises to get quickly to the point.Although you probably wouldn't be persuaded by any of this it might at least convince you that you have an overly simplistic idea of what Calvinism is.

How on earth are our actions futile? That's what makes no sense. We know we are responsible for our choices BY THE BIBLE which also teaches about election and predestination and all that. everything we do counts the same as if we were Arminians instead of Calvinists. I really don't get where you come up with this notion.Where did I say Tangle forfeited his salvation? I've said over and over that he can still be saved.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I had to search to find the post, Message 482.What I am saying there is that he keeps rejecting and denying everything that would lead him to salvation, so of course he is not doing what is necessary to receive the eternal life he says he wants. So I tell him there are things he can do to have eternal life if he is really interested. As I keep saying, in the end we are responsible for the choice, we can accept or reject it, and nobody knows whether Tangle is predestined to salvation or not. I don't get your problem.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

You didn't read it in context, you took it to mean something final and permanent when if you'd read it in the context of the biblical quotes it wshould be obvious it was describing what he was actually doing and presumably he could stop doing it and do something else. OK it could have been clearer but what is this determination to read out of context and insist I meant something I obviously didn't mean? I didn't mean GOD was stopping him from being saved, just that what HE was doing was preventing it. I don't know why I put it that way, maybe because it didn't seem like he'd ever do anything else, but theoretically he could always change and do something else; one can ALWAYS STIL BE SAVED. As long as there is life there is hope./This is what they are all doing to Trump toop.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Tangle has no interest in any of this. If you really think he read me to say it is impossible for him to be saved rather than that his own behavior prevents it, then you can clarify for him.

This is why I wish we could just not talk aboujt Calvinism, it is too hard to explain it. Yes we cannot do anything to be saved, it is all God's doing, but then when people treat that as meaning they might as well just stop doing anything at all because it's all futile, I have to disagree with that. We've been talking about predestination here and this gets treated that way, everything is futile then. And I can lose track of the context myself as the conversation wanders so I don't know if I'm saying anything helpful or not. But the fact that God is totally in charge of everything really does not affect what we do at all. In some sense everything we do is "in God's will" anyway. But if anyone wants to be saved nothing is preventing it, you do whatever you know to do to be saved and that includes praying for it. If anyone shows that much interest I'd suggest God is motivating it. But this whole discussion just gets wacko so fast. The idea of election and predestination are really meant to be reassurances to those who have been walking with God for a long time.; As an intellectual subject it's just too confusing, and all the more confusing when it gets into questions about unbelievers being saved or not. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.