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Author | Topic: Christianity and the End Times | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
All I am trying to say to you is to also allow yourself to imagine a God Who at least acknowledges your existance and Who can at least listen to your prayers rather than simply some character in a book who tells you to go feed the hungry and never communicates with you (even within your imagination)
Which leads me to ask: Why is it so hard for you to grasp the concept of talking to God and/or listening for peace? You yourself have put Him in a box limiting Him.(and limiting yourself) If creating a God character was so easy for the authors of the books, and if we can agree that many of the gods currently marketed don't fit the belief that we seek or want, why not imagine One whom you can pray to, meditate upon, and listen for inner peace and confirmation? You have told me that I seek a God whom I want. Others have commented on the anthropomorphizing commonly employed by many humans. Personally, I believe that GOD exists apart from our ability to imagine or make Him up. Is it so bad to seek communion through prayer and meditation? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile writes: Scenario 2 sounds like Open Theism. Check out the link and tell me what you think. Now here's the mind-bender: What's more powerful? Scenario 1A powerful God creates all humans, creating their minds, their choices, their decisions. Some He has pre-destined to return to Him. Others He has pre-destined to move away from Him. -This would be the gist of what I described above - God is the most powerful being, creator of all and know-er of all. Scenario 2A powerful God creates all humans, creating their minds - but not knowing their choices or decisions. Some make their own choice to return to Him. Others make their own choice to move away from Him. -This would be against the gist of what I described above - God is still the "most powerful" being... but not all powerful. He is the creator of all, but not the know-er of all as He doesn't know what decisions the humans will make. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Not exactly. I believe that God exists even if I didn't. I believe that God allows...even expects me to use my imagination, however. If we limit our understanding of God to what others have said or written, we are not being entirely honest with ourselves regarding our belief. Do you realize what you're saying? God is a product of our imaginations. What I would say is that our understanding of God is a synthesis of our conscience and our imagination. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
NN writes: The Open Theism argument is compelling to me...especially in light of other current discussion with jar regarding imagining a "Living" and active God versus a stagnant and dated character in a book. Having the power to pre-determine everything does not mean that it would be best to use such power. Reasoned restraint is not weakness.Open Theists believe that God seeks to be in a reciprocal relationship with mankind. Because of this, God does not exercise "meticulous control" of the universe, but leaves it "open" for mankind to make significant choices (freewill) that impact their relationships with Him and others. They argue that this is both what the Scripture says about God, and is the experience of Christians. People pray expecting that God will answer their prayers not that the outcome was predetermined and therefore meaningless to pray. Therefore Open Theists argue that Christians in practice treat God as if He will respond to them and act themselves as if their moral choices are real and have real impact. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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Hmmmm.don't pay jar any mind, Faith. he uses "pieces parts" out of context to make his lesson focus on the god he chooses to present to his students. I can, however, do the same thing.
God is Omnipresent: quote:God is Omniscient. quote:Have you ever read the Bible, jar? God is Omnipotent.
quote: Granted anyone can use the Bible to present any sort of God character that they choose to present. I keep asking jar to at least play along and imagine the God of the Nicene Creed rather than a fumbling newbie learning on the job...but he seems to prefer presenting the newbie to us for some strange reason!Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
And yet jar does it all the time. Is it beneath him? I'm just defending Faith since he picks on her incessantly.
I'll back off, however. You may consider being a Moderator, ringo. You have that ability! Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith writes: Did you read the article on Open Theism? The Open Theists make a strong case. It is supported by scripture also. I try to avoid getting too deeply into questions that are beyond human understanding. I don't expect to understand everything about God. Your idea about powerful meaning is meaningless to me. Getting back to the topic, however:
PaulK writes: So our main question as I see it at this point is: But what does the Bible really say. You won’t find out from those selling an imminent apocalypse. I intend to survey the major end-time predictions and see if they really do match the present situation.Who Is The God Of The Bible? After all, if there is to be an end, either God causes it, allows it to happen, or does not exist...in which case we are responsible for continuing our species. I happen to believe that God allows it to happen...thus the ball is in our court.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: But would you not argue that the Bible itself is a creation of humans? If so, what difference does the argument make? Metaphorically we are discussing the Endtimes if in fact such an event is inevitable or not. The Nicene Creed is another creation of humans; it is NOT Biblical based but rather political in nature and a creation from hundreds of years after Jesus death. So we have a line of questions. 1) Is the end times inevitable or are they simply a clever marketing ploy? 2) If God didn't exist, would humans still be capable (and perhaps likely) to foster their own demise? Watch Jonathan Haight's video for some clues.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So if God already knows everything that you will do, that's ok with you?
It would make me feel a bit like a zombie.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
There are a lot of unanswered questions, Tangle. One thing that I disagree that you predict is that religion is dying. You will find that it will never die as future problems and challenges occur. You may well argue that it is a crutch and that rationale and reason are in fact our anchors, but when times get extremely tough and the solutions get scarce people will always turn to belief.
A couple of questions for you:
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Yes yes, I know. God uses humans to help each other. But surely God does not use you simply to give a man change for an afternoon drink. God would more likely give the man the ability to fish rather than simply handing over the spare change to keep him in bondage. Same with end times needs. Of course people need each other. In a perfect world, we would share what we have to those in need. But in an end times scenario, nobody in the Western world is going to share their own diminishing resources simply so that others can come up to the diminished level the West is adjusting to.
You and I have argued this before regarding unionism. You always advocate ignoring the rich and urging the middle to help the bottom. My observation is that in an end times scenario, the middle is already being crushed, the bottom sees an opportunity to move up, and the rich still hold all the guns and gold (and military and legal) at their disposal. Try preaching to a newly homeless guy that he still has it better than 1/2 the world!Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jaywill writes: The concept would be entertained, but any potential members who self-identify with the Bride would be challenged to provide evidence that we were indeed ready for such a union and whether we were being a proper Bride through our behaviors and actions here in the present time. If I entered the discussion I would put much more emphasis on spiritual catalysts leading to and causing Christ's second coming.In Revelation 19, for example, its says that the bride has made herself ready. This is the wooing and compelling impetus for a longing Christ to come again for at least a representative remnant who prepare themselves to be in total union of love with Him. Am I right that that aspect has been less developed here?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I received a recovery version from this organization known as The Local Church Movement started by Witness Lee and Watchman Nee. Though charged with being a cult of sorts, there is valid teaching emanating from these organizations. Do you have any connection with or commentary on the local church movement? I personally won't hold it against you if that's where your emphasis on Bible Study was instilled, for I realize that you never refer to anything but the Bible itself as your source of study and wisdom.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
That note was for Acts 21 and says what you described.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith writes: Critics may suggest that this would amount to God scaring the reluctant ones into belief...which sorta negates free will. Comments? ...I do often think there are many people who NEED to go through tribulation to be shaken up enough to avidly pursue Christ (and unfortunately that could include me). So when I think of family and friends who would go through it I pray for courage and spiritual strength for them.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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