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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 558 of 1748 (836974)
07-25-2018 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 557 by jar
07-25-2018 9:16 AM


Imagining Communion and Communication
All I am trying to say to you is to also allow yourself to imagine a God Who at least acknowledges your existance and Who can at least listen to your prayers rather than simply some character in a book who tells you to go feed the hungry and never communicates with you (even within your imagination)
Which leads me to ask: Why is it so hard for you to grasp the concept of talking to God and/or listening for peace? You yourself have put Him in a box limiting Him.(and limiting yourself)
If creating a God character was so easy for the authors of the books, and if we can agree that many of the gods currently marketed don't fit the belief that we seek or want, why not imagine One whom you can pray to, meditate upon, and listen for inner peace and confirmation? You have told me that I seek a God whom I want. Others have commented on the anthropomorphizing commonly employed by many humans. Personally, I believe that GOD exists apart from our ability to imagine or make Him up. Is it so bad to seek communion through prayer and meditation?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 557 by jar, posted 07-25-2018 9:16 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 559 by jar, posted 07-25-2018 10:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 564 of 1748 (836988)
07-25-2018 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 560 by Stile
07-25-2018 11:53 AM


Consider Open Theism
Stile writes:
Now here's the mind-bender:
What's more powerful?
Scenario 1
A powerful God creates all humans, creating their minds, their choices, their decisions. Some He has pre-destined to return to Him. Others He has pre-destined to move away from Him.
-This would be the gist of what I described above - God is the most powerful being, creator of all and know-er of all.
Scenario 2
A powerful God creates all humans, creating their minds - but not knowing their choices or decisions. Some make their own choice to return to Him. Others make their own choice to move away from Him.
-This would be against the gist of what I described above - God is still the "most powerful" being... but not all powerful. He is the creator of all, but not the know-er of all as He doesn't know what decisions the humans will make.
Scenario 2 sounds like Open Theism. Check out the link and tell me what you think.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by Stile, posted 07-25-2018 11:53 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 569 by Stile, posted 07-25-2018 12:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 565 of 1748 (836990)
07-25-2018 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 563 by ringo
07-25-2018 12:09 PM


Re: Some sources
ringo writes:
Do you realize what you're saying? God is a product of our imaginations.
Not exactly. I believe that God exists even if I didn't. I believe that God allows...even expects me to use my imagination, however. If we limit our understanding of God to what others have said or written, we are not being entirely honest with ourselves regarding our belief.
What I would say is that our understanding of God is a synthesis of our conscience and our imagination.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 563 by ringo, posted 07-25-2018 12:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 567 by ringo, posted 07-25-2018 12:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 566 of 1748 (836991)
07-25-2018 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 561 by NoNukes
07-25-2018 11:59 AM


Open Theism Allows For A Better Communion
NN writes:
Having the power to pre-determine everything does not mean that it would be best to use such power. Reasoned restraint is not weakness.
The Open Theism argument is compelling to me...especially in light of other current discussion with jar regarding imagining a "Living" and active God versus a stagnant and dated character in a book.
Open Theists believe that God seeks to be in a reciprocal relationship with mankind. Because of this, God does not exercise "meticulous control" of the universe, but leaves it "open" for mankind to make significant choices (freewill) that impact their relationships with Him and others. They argue that this is both what the Scripture says about God, and is the experience of Christians. People pray expecting that God will answer their prayers not that the outcome was predetermined and therefore meaningless to pray. Therefore Open Theists argue that Christians in practice treat God as if He will respond to them and act themselves as if their moral choices are real and have real impact.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 561 by NoNukes, posted 07-25-2018 11:59 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 584 by NoNukes, posted 07-25-2018 5:32 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 572 of 1748 (837006)
07-25-2018 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 571 by jar
07-25-2018 3:27 PM


Presenting God as found in the Bible
Hmmmm.don't pay jar any mind, Faith. he uses "pieces parts" out of context to make his lesson focus on the god he chooses to present to his students. I can, however, do the same thing.
God is Omnipresent:
quote:
Psalm 139:7-10: Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the dawn, if I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, even there Your hand will lead me, and Your right hand will lay hold of me.
Jeremiah 23:24: Can a man hide himself in hiding places so I do not see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill the heavens and the earth? declares the Lord.
1 Kings 8:27: But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!
Prov. 15:3: The eyes of the LORD are in every place, Watching the evil and the good.
God is Omniscient.
quote:
Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.
Psalm 139:1-6 O LORD, You have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, and are intimately acquainted with all my ways. Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all. You have enclosed me behind and before, and laid Your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is too high, I cannot attain to it.
1 Jn.3:18-20 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
1) God knew Cain killed Abel though no human eye saw it — Gen.4:10
2) God knew Sarah laughed derisively in her tent about bearing a child — Gen.18:12
3) God knew Achan stole wedge of gold & hid in earth — Josh.7:11
4) God knew about David’s adultery, lying & murder & sent Nathan to him — Thou art the man.
Have you ever read the Bible, jar?
God is Omnipotent.
quote:
Is.40:28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth does not become weary or tired. His understanding is inscrutable.
Rev.19:6 Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, ‘Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.’
Job 9:4-10 He is wise in heart and mighty in strength, who has defied Him without harm? It is God who removes the mountains, they know not how, when He overturns them in His anger; who shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble; who commands the sun not to shine, and sets a seal upon the stars; who alone stretches out the heavens and tramples down the waves of the sea; who makes the Bear, Orion and the Pleiades, and the chambers of the south; who does great things, unfathomable, and wondrous works without number.
Eph.3:20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us
Granted anyone can use the Bible to present any sort of God character that they choose to present. I keep asking jar to at least play along and imagine the God of the Nicene Creed rather than a fumbling newbie learning on the job...but he seems to prefer presenting the newbie to us for some strange reason!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by jar, posted 07-25-2018 3:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 574 by ringo, posted 07-25-2018 4:21 PM Phat has replied
 Message 576 by jar, posted 07-25-2018 4:29 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 575 of 1748 (837011)
07-25-2018 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 574 by ringo
07-25-2018 4:21 PM


Re: Presenting God as found in the Bible
And yet jar does it all the time. Is it beneath him? I'm just defending Faith since he picks on her incessantly.
I'll back off, however. You may consider being a Moderator, ringo. You have that ability!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by ringo, posted 07-25-2018 4:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 578 by ringo, posted 07-25-2018 4:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 577 of 1748 (837013)
07-25-2018 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 573 by Faith
07-25-2018 4:06 PM


Back to the topic..sort of
Faith writes:
I try to avoid getting too deeply into questions that are beyond human understanding. I don't expect to understand everything about God. Your idea about powerful meaning is meaningless to me.
Did you read the article on Open Theism? The Open Theists make a strong case. It is supported by scripture also.
Getting back to the topic, however:
PaulK writes:
But what does the Bible really say. You won’t find out from those selling an imminent apocalypse.
I intend to survey the major end-time predictions and see if they really do match the present situation.
So our main question as I see it at this point is:
Who Is The God Of The Bible?
After all, if there is to be an end, either God causes it, allows it to happen, or does not exist...in which case we are responsible for continuing our species.
I happen to believe that God allows it to happen...thus the ball is in our court.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Faith, posted 07-25-2018 4:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 580 by Faith, posted 07-25-2018 4:57 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 579 of 1748 (837015)
07-25-2018 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 576 by jar
07-25-2018 4:29 PM


Re: Presenting God as found in the Bible
jar writes:
The Nicene Creed is another creation of humans; it is NOT Biblical based but rather political in nature and a creation from hundreds of years after Jesus death.
But would you not argue that the Bible itself is a creation of humans? If so, what difference does the argument make? Metaphorically we are discussing the Endtimes if in fact such an event is inevitable or not.
So we have a line of questions.
1) Is the end times inevitable or are they simply a clever marketing ploy?
2) If God didn't exist, would humans still be capable (and perhaps likely) to foster their own demise? Watch Jonathan Haight's video for some clues.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by jar, posted 07-25-2018 4:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 582 by jar, posted 07-25-2018 5:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 581 of 1748 (837019)
07-25-2018 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 580 by Faith
07-25-2018 4:57 PM


Re: Back to the topic..sort of
So if God already knows everything that you will do, that's ok with you?
It would make me feel a bit like a zombie.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by Faith, posted 07-25-2018 4:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 583 by Faith, posted 07-25-2018 5:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 589 of 1748 (837073)
07-26-2018 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by Tangle
07-26-2018 12:19 PM


Re: Open Theism Allows For A Better Communion
There are a lot of unanswered questions, Tangle. One thing that I disagree that you predict is that religion is dying. You will find that it will never die as future problems and challenges occur. You may well argue that it is a crutch and that rationale and reason are in fact our anchors, but when times get extremely tough and the solutions get scarce people will always turn to belief.
A couple of questions for you:
  • Hypothetically if you were to entertain a theistic argument, does Open Theism sound more rational than Calvinism? Note that I say hypothetically were you to argue from a theistic perspective...I realize that you think its all bollocks.
  • Why specifically do you think that faith and belief are not at all good for people to entertain?
  • Assuming God does not exist, do you still see the threat of a possible global war/endtime scenario due to the foibles of humans themselves? What is a good course to take to avoid such a disaster?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 588 by Tangle, posted 07-26-2018 12:19 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 590 by Tangle, posted 07-26-2018 12:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 591 by ringo, posted 07-26-2018 12:56 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 592 of 1748 (837077)
    07-26-2018 1:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 591 by ringo
    07-26-2018 12:56 PM


    Re: Open Theism Allows For A Better Communion
    Yes yes, I know. God uses humans to help each other. But surely God does not use you simply to give a man change for an afternoon drink. God would more likely give the man the ability to fish rather than simply handing over the spare change to keep him in bondage. Same with end times needs. Of course people need each other. In a perfect world, we would share what we have to those in need. But in an end times scenario, nobody in the Western world is going to share their own diminishing resources simply so that others can come up to the diminished level the West is adjusting to.
    You and I have argued this before regarding unionism. You always advocate ignoring the rich and urging the middle to help the bottom. My observation is that in an end times scenario, the middle is already being crushed, the bottom sees an opportunity to move up, and the rich still hold all the guns and gold (and military and legal) at their disposal. Try preaching to a newly homeless guy that he still has it better than 1/2 the world!

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 591 by ringo, posted 07-26-2018 12:56 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 594 by ringo, posted 07-26-2018 1:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 603 of 1748 (837861)
    08-10-2018 7:29 AM
    Reply to: Message 602 by jaywill
    08-10-2018 7:14 AM


    The Bride Ain't Ready
    jaywill writes:
    If I entered the discussion I would put much more emphasis on spiritual catalysts leading to and causing Christ's second coming.
    In Revelation 19, for example, its says that the bride has made herself ready. This is the wooing and compelling impetus for a longing Christ to come again for at least a representative remnant who prepare themselves to be in total union of love with Him.
    Am I right that that aspect has been less developed here?
    The concept would be entertained, but any potential members who self-identify with the Bride would be challenged to provide evidence that we were indeed ready for such a union and whether we were being a proper Bride through our behaviors and actions here in the present time.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 602 by jaywill, posted 08-10-2018 7:14 AM jaywill has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 605 by jaywill, posted 08-10-2018 8:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 649 of 1748 (838069)
    08-13-2018 3:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 648 by jaywill
    08-13-2018 3:33 PM


    Bibles For America
    I received a recovery version from this organization known as The Local Church Movement started by Witness Lee and Watchman Nee. Though charged with being a cult of sorts, there is valid teaching emanating from these organizations. Do you have any connection with or commentary on the local church movement? I personally won't hold it against you if that's where your emphasis on Bible Study was instilled, for I realize that you never refer to anything but the Bible itself as your source of study and wisdom.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 648 by jaywill, posted 08-13-2018 3:33 PM jaywill has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 652 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-13-2018 7:42 PM Phat has replied
     Message 653 by Faith, posted 08-13-2018 8:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 657 by jaywill, posted 08-13-2018 10:07 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 667 by jaywill, posted 08-14-2018 11:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 661 of 1748 (838107)
    08-14-2018 3:08 AM
    Reply to: Message 652 by LamarkNewAge
    08-13-2018 7:42 PM


    Re: This particular Bible (you and jaywill) is critical of James, the brother of Jesus.
    That note was for Acts 21 and says what you described.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 652 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-13-2018 7:42 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 669 of 1748 (838154)
    08-14-2018 3:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 668 by Faith
    08-14-2018 11:29 AM


    Re: Bibles For America
    Faith writes:
    ...I do often think there are many people who NEED to go through tribulation to be shaken up enough to avidly pursue Christ (and unfortunately that could include me). So when I think of family and friends who would go through it I pray for courage and spiritual strength for them.
    Critics may suggest that this would amount to God scaring the reluctant ones into belief...which sorta negates free will. Comments?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 668 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 11:29 AM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 670 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 8:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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