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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 543 of 1748 (836942)
07-24-2018 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by herebedragons
07-24-2018 1:19 PM


Re: Some sources
For example, "But the fact that God is totally in charge of everything really does not affect what we do at all." - if things can happen apart from God's will, then he really is not in charge of it.
But that is not a logical conclusion. Nothing happens apart from God's will. Everything we do is in some sense in God's will all the time. It's a matter of perspective. From our point of view we can't know God's will and trying to second guess God just gets us confused. Nobody knows beforehand who is predestined for salvation, that's why we give the gospel to all.
the problem with rejecting God's sovereignty in salvation is that you make human will stronger than God.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 551 of 1748 (836958)
07-24-2018 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 546 by herebedragons
07-24-2018 1:53 PM


Re: Some sources
God's will probably not the right way to say it since it does imply He's in favor of what He will,s but I don't mean it that way. All I mean is that we can't escape God, everything we do is done in His power/will/whatever because nothing exists without Him. A butterfly happened to fly into my room: that's God's will. I dropped the bowl of potato salad. That's God's will. Aha, maybe the better term is "providence." Theologicans talk of "frowning providences" as well as blessings. I don't know but the point is just that we always feel free to do whatever we do in spite of the fact that because God is God we can only do it all in some sense in His will or providence or power or whatever the right term is. Like that Greek poet Paul quoted to the Athenians (Epimenides?) describing the "unknown God" as the "God in whom we live and move and have our being."
So in this simple sense it is meaningless to talk about our actions being "futile" because God has preordained some people to salvation. Again, anyone who really desires salvation can have it because the desire itself is God given.
I'm not sure what the parable of the talents is meant to illustrate. There isn't a contradiction between God's sovereignty and our will in this sense, so God can't overstep" human will in any case, so that it isn't right to say He restrains it.
AQnyway I just wanted to say that in the ordinary experience we have of our own free will, which isn't really what Calvinism is talking about anyway, we don't experience any restraint or conflict, it's as if He isn't there as far as our own perception goes, although He is in fact in everything we do. He can't NOT be.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 570 of 1748 (837002)
07-25-2018 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by Stile
07-25-2018 12:35 PM


Re: Consider Open Theism
Talking about God as "exercising" control makes him too much like us. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, which means He can't NOT be in control of everything, and everything He does is precisely calibrated as the perfect response to everything that happens. By His very nature He has power over all things down to the comma at the end of this phrase and all the atoms involved in its existence, has foreknowledge of everything without exception, and is everywhere at all times, including surrounding you completely. The Bible presents God in human terms to make Him more understandable, but those terms are a concession to our inability to grasp such a Being as He really is.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 573 of 1748 (837007)
07-25-2018 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 560 by Stile
07-25-2018 11:53 AM


Re: Some sources
I don't hypothesize about God, I accept that He is in charge of everything and I try to avoid getting too deeply into questions that are beyond human understanding. I don't e4xpect to understand everything about God. Your idea about powerful meaning is meaningless to me.
However, this idea that God's sovereignty somehow prevents us from using our intelligence and making our own judgments is false, another vgersion of hyperCalvinism I suppose.
abe: The meaning of life has become so much richer, deeper and more beautiful since I became a believer Even though I can't imagine eternity and sometimes have the unworthy idea that I could get bored, I just remind myself that God knows me better than I do and when scripture says that "in His presence are pleasures forevermore" I believe it on faith though I can't imagine it. I exoect to be happily surprised to the point of tears of joy and gratitude. This morning I heard some chapters of the book of Ezekiel read over the radio where it goes on and on about the measurements of the holy district and the lands allotted to the twelve tribes of Israel, Which I csn't understand at all though I assume it must have deep spiritual meaning that I may understand after death; and when it described trees producing fruit of all kinds and leaves that cure diseases, although I can't imagine fruits that I could never get tired of I made myself see it with the eyes of faith, that whatever it is will be good in every possible way beyond my imagining. And it made me wish again for the Rapture to come soon. /abe
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 580 of 1748 (837018)
07-25-2018 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 577 by Phat
07-25-2018 4:29 PM


Re: Back to the topic..sort of
I read enough about Open Theism to know that it postulates God's not knowing some things and that ends my interest in it.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 583 of 1748 (837022)
07-25-2018 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 581 by Phat
07-25-2018 5:05 PM


Re: Back to the topic..sort of
I don't know why anybody thinks anything would change simply by knowing the facts about God's nature. I love the idea that God knows me inside and out, because I know that He knows me far better than I know myself, that He is good and has my interests at heart, and I love Him and want Him that close to me. It's not that I don't have doubts and worries, but overall no, I have no problem with God's being all powerful and all knowing and present everywhere.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 596 of 1748 (837090)
07-26-2018 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 586 by Stile
07-26-2018 8:55 AM


Re: Consider Open Theism
When the conversation gets to this point I fervently wish it had never come up. Although I consider it false I'd rather everybody thought like an Arminian than ended up with this sort of weird thinking that isn't Calvinism but is always provoked by it.
  • God is God, He can't not be in control of everything.
  • That fact does not affect our ability to live and act as if He isn't there.
  • What Calvinism identifies, based on the Bible, is our inability to choose salvation because of the Fall, not any other kind of free choice. this is really the doctrine of "total depravity" which means our loss of the ability to choose the things of God because of the Fall. God has to regenerate us, or "quicken" our spirits that were lost at the Fall in order for us to be saved. This is what it means to be "born again." And this gift from God would not have been possible if the Son of God had not become a man and died in our place on the cross to pay for our sins. Thanks to His sacrifice those who believe on Him can be regenerated and look forward to a happy eternity without sin or disease or any of the infirmities we suffer on earth.
  • As scripture says, we can't take credit for our salvation, it is entirely a gift of God "lest any man should boast."
  • We are incapable of "choosing to love Him" Hypothesizing some other possible way God could have done things is just futile. God is God, He can't be something other than God.
  • Trying to understand life in general in these terms only ties our heads up in knots.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(2)
Message 597 of 1748 (837093)
07-26-2018 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 595 by NoNukes
07-26-2018 5:37 PM


Re: Open Theism Allows For A Better Communion
I recently heard the story of a local Christian woman who felt called by God to take food to the many people she had just discovered are living on the edge in this community, most in motels. She takes them food and usually also prepares a meal to share with them to get to know them. She encourages them to take advantage of many available services. Over the last ten or so years many others have joined with her and donations have been coming in to help with the project. Many of those who have been helped have found jobs, moved up in the world and joined this growing movement to help others. And some have become Christians. This is how the church should work.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 599 of 1748 (837097)
07-26-2018 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by NoNukes
07-26-2018 5:55 PM


Re: Consider Open Theism
Oh well. I'm simply trying to describe what I understand to be the correct biblical theology and I believe Calvinism to be the correct biblical theology. Sigh.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 604 of 1748 (837864)
08-10-2018 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 602 by jaywill
08-10-2018 7:14 AM


I took it as about biblical prophecy of the timing of events, but I don't think it would be off topic to get into some specific spiritual issues related to all that.
I've recently been getting more attracted to the idea of the "pre-tribulation Rapture" which has never completely convinced me. What is your view of that?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 607 of 1748 (837867)
08-10-2018 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 605 by jaywill
08-10-2018 8:16 AM


Re: The Bride Ain't Ready
I'm not sure about the idea of "laying tracks" for God to fulfill prophecy although I would expect Him to raise up godly men like Daniel to point the way through them. Daniel's faithfulness, however, is certainly the reason for God's giving him the prophecies as He did, and so much understanding of them.
e

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 609 of 1748 (837870)
08-10-2018 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 608 by jaywill
08-10-2018 8:30 AM


Yes, I certainly agree about the readiness factor, and would very much like to hear your thoughts about that. Since I began being drawn to this notion I've been more and more eager for it to be true, and soon.
Also the necessity of the Rapture or there will be no tribulation sounds right too, though I'm pretty vague about it. I haven't seen any convincing evidence for your "mid-trib" position yet though. Well, mid-seventieth week position.
There will certainly be a lot of people who call themselves Christian who will not go in the Rapture, so that would mean a lot of people coming to faith during the tribulation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 611 of 1748 (837873)
08-10-2018 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 610 by jaywill
08-10-2018 8:51 AM


Interesting. I will read Revelation 12 more carefully today.
I would like to know your understanding of what readiness means.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 612 of 1748 (837875)
08-10-2018 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 611 by Faith
08-10-2018 9:01 AM


Ah, the "time, times and half a time" in Revelation 12

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 615 of 1748 (837915)
08-10-2018 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 614 by Dredge
08-10-2018 7:17 PM


When are the times of the Gentiles over?
I'd recently begun seeing "the times of the Gentiles" as embracing the whole Christian era, which seems to be an interruption of Daniel's prophecy of the Seventy Weeks, which we discussed on a previous thread. In other words, it would end when the Christian era ends, which I've been coming to see as the pre-tribulation Rapture, after which the last week of Daniel's prophecy begins and the Great Tribulation ensues, while it is now again the Jews who are the dominant focus of God's activities in the world.
That's how I'd come to think of it, rather loosely, recently. Now jaywill has entered the discussion with the familiar other idea that the tribulation begins in the middle of the seventieth week. I expect there will be some discussion of this when he returns this evening. Not sure I'll be able to be here then.
Here's a commentary on the "times of the Gentiles" hat is somewhat similar to what i'd been coming to think:
After thousands of years of exile, a Jewish state was miraculously established in Israel again in 1948. It was not until 1968 that Israel controlled Jerusalem, but still today they yield the rule and the administration of the most central piece of Jerusalem — the Temple Mount — to Gentile rule (the Palestinian Authority). It can be argued that prophetically speaking, Jerusalem is still trampled by Gentiles.
b. Until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled: When these times of the Gentiles are completed, the author believes that the remaining seven-year period appointed to the Jewish people in Daniel 9 begins. The calamities described in following verses will come in this period.
It is the Rapture idea I'm most focused on at the moment, which may very well be THE end of the "times of the Gentiles" when the Jews again become God's agents on the earth.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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