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Author | Topic: Christianity and the End Times | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: The Bible presents God in human terms to make Him more understandable, but those terms are a concession to our inability to grasp such a Being as He really is. But the Bible presents God as not being omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Have you ever actually read the Bible Faith?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1
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Hmmmm.don't pay jar any mind, Faith. he uses "pieces parts" out of context to make his lesson focus on the god he chooses to present to his students. I can, however, do the same thing.
God is Omnipresent: quote:God is Omniscient. quote:Have you ever read the Bible, jar? God is Omnipotent.
quote: Granted anyone can use the Bible to present any sort of God character that they choose to present. I keep asking jar to at least play along and imagine the God of the Nicene Creed rather than a fumbling newbie learning on the job...but he seems to prefer presenting the newbie to us for some strange reason!Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't hypothesize about God, I accept that He is in charge of everything and I try to avoid getting too deeply into questions that are beyond human understanding. I don't e4xpect to understand everything about God. Your idea about powerful meaning is meaningless to me.
However, this idea that God's sovereignty somehow prevents us from using our intelligence and making our own judgments is false, another vgersion of hyperCalvinism I suppose. abe: The meaning of life has become so much richer, deeper and more beautiful since I became a believer Even though I can't imagine eternity and sometimes have the unworthy idea that I could get bored, I just remind myself that God knows me better than I do and when scripture says that "in His presence are pleasures forevermore" I believe it on faith though I can't imagine it. I exoect to be happily surprised to the point of tears of joy and gratitude. This morning I heard some chapters of the book of Ezekiel read over the radio where it goes on and on about the measurements of the holy district and the lands allotted to the twelve tribes of Israel, Which I csn't understand at all though I assume it must have deep spiritual meaning that I may understand after death; and when it described trees producing fruit of all kinds and leaves that cure diseases, although I can't imagine fruits that I could never get tired of I made myself see it with the eyes of faith, that whatever it is will be good in every possible way beyond my imagining. And it made me wish again for the Rapture to come soon. /abe Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Hmmmm.don't pay jar any mind, Faith. he uses "pieces parts" out of context to make his lesson focus on the god he chooses to present to his students.Phat writes:
This sort of thing is beneath you. Please don't do it again. Have you ever read the Bible, jar?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
And yet jar does it all the time. Is it beneath him? I'm just defending Faith since he picks on her incessantly.
I'll back off, however. You may consider being a Moderator, ringo. You have that ability! Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Have you ever read the Bible, jar? yes Phat, and the point is that the Bible stories present not just conflicting positions, not just conflicting descriptions of God, not just conflicting creation and flood myths, not just conflicting versions of the evnt on the Road to Damascus or the Great Commission but mutually exclusive versions.
Phat writes: I keep asking jar to at least play along and imagine the God of the Nicene Creed rather than a fumbling newbie learning on the job...but he seems to prefer presenting the newbie to us for some strange reason! The Nicene Creed is another creation of humans; it is NOT Biblical based but rather political in nature and a creation from hundreds of years after Jesus death. In addition, the God of the Nicene Creed most definitely excludes the Jesus so many Christian Market.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Faith writes: Did you read the article on Open Theism? The Open Theists make a strong case. It is supported by scripture also. I try to avoid getting too deeply into questions that are beyond human understanding. I don't expect to understand everything about God. Your idea about powerful meaning is meaningless to me. Getting back to the topic, however:
PaulK writes: So our main question as I see it at this point is: But what does the Bible really say. You won’t find out from those selling an imminent apocalypse. I intend to survey the major end-time predictions and see if they really do match the present situation.Who Is The God Of The Bible? After all, if there is to be an end, either God causes it, allows it to happen, or does not exist...in which case we are responsible for continuing our species. I happen to believe that God allows it to happen...thus the ball is in our court.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Mocking somebody's posting style is in the backyard of ad hominem.
And yet jar does it all the time. Is it beneath him? Phat writes:
If Faith's position was defensible, you'd be defending it instead of lashing out at people who point out where she's wrong. I'm just defending Faith....And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: But would you not argue that the Bible itself is a creation of humans? If so, what difference does the argument make? Metaphorically we are discussing the Endtimes if in fact such an event is inevitable or not. The Nicene Creed is another creation of humans; it is NOT Biblical based but rather political in nature and a creation from hundreds of years after Jesus death. So we have a line of questions. 1) Is the end times inevitable or are they simply a clever marketing ploy? 2) If God didn't exist, would humans still be capable (and perhaps likely) to foster their own demise? Watch Jonathan Haight's video for some clues.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I read enough about Open Theism to know that it postulates God's not knowing some things and that ends my interest in it.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
So if God already knows everything that you will do, that's ok with you?
It would make me feel a bit like a zombie.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: 1) Is the end times inevitable or are they simply a clever marketing ploy? And the answer depends on what you think "the End Times" mean. Remember as in all other instances the Bible provides contradictory and mutually exclusive description of what the End Times means and has constantly revised those to try to keep up with reality. The Jewish concept of End Times as found in the Old Testament is nothing like ANY of the ones marketed by Christianity. So far every single End Time marketed by Christianity has failed to happen. There is absolutely no evidence that any of the many End Times prophecies or scenarios market by Christianity are likely to happen. But there is overwhelming evidence that humans are very likely to become extinct and sooner rather than later in evolutionary time spans. There is even stronger evidence that this solar system will come to an end. And most of the evidence seems to point to this universe coming to an end eventually.
Phat writes: 2) If God didn't exist, would humans still be capable (and perhaps likely) to foster their own demise? Watch Jonathan Haight's video for some clues. Whether God exists or not, humans most certainly are still be capable (and perhaps likely) to foster their own demise and there is NO evidence that God would intervene in anyway. There is also overwhelming evidence we are trying very hard to foster our own and well as most other species demise. There is no need to watch ANY video for those things to be obvious.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't know why anybody thinks anything would change simply by knowing the facts about God's nature. I love the idea that God knows me inside and out, because I know that He knows me far better than I know myself, that He is good and has my interests at heart, and I love Him and want Him that close to me. It's not that I don't have doubts and worries, but overall no, I have no problem with God's being all powerful and all knowing and present everywhere.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
NoNukes writes: Having the power to pre-determine everything does not mean that it would be best to use such power. Reasoned restraint is not weakness. Phat writes: The Open Theism argument is compelling to me...especially in light of other current discussion with jar regarding imagining a "Living" and active God versus a stagnant and dated character in a book. I wouldn't go so far as the Open Theism argument. I don't see the need to apply any limits to what God can do. But God appears to choose to allow humans to determine at least their earthly destiny and does not appear to pre-determine every flutter of a butterflies wing. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: But the reality is that only by our thinking/imagining can we even be able to approach the GOD Who is. Yes, that should give you pause for thought. Why is it that it is only by imagining that you can approach the god who is (As if that means anything at all.)
Do you have any better suggestions for believers...apart from your rant against superstition and appeal to logic? No. I think you're all deluded and looking for impossible and improbable answers to your own problems.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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