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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 76 of 441 (837164)
07-28-2018 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
07-28-2018 8:50 AM


Re: after all the philosophical masturbation gets boring these issues remain
jar writes:
Is that really where we want to see US society go?
No.
I don't know what category of human I would be placed in, if others were judging me. Sometimes I can be stereotypical as an Evangelical, or a racist white person...other times as I allow my perspective to grow, I realize that I am still very much a work in progress and likely will end up the way that I choose to become, after having a life with enough evidence from all sides with which to consider.
I recently watched the 1956 movie classic, GIANT. One reason that I watched it is because at the grocery store which I work, we often find random books scattered throughout the store...dropped there by The Bookdrop Project, a clandestine literary initiative done locally here in Denver.
One book which I picked up was Scene From The Movie: GIANT by Tino Villanueva. I watched a You Tube clip of the fight scene itself and...spurred on by the fact that my best friend is from Mexico and has opened my eyes to the cultural diversity within his culture as well as curiosity about mine...so I eventually rented the 3 hour movie and also read Tino Villanuevas book.
So what does this have to do with Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion? It has to do with the attitudes that we as a people choose to embrace on an individual level. Your question about where we want to be headed brought all of this up in my mind.
Edited by Phat, : added clip

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 07-28-2018 8:50 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 07-28-2018 10:38 AM Phat has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 77 of 441 (837165)
07-28-2018 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Percy
07-28-2018 8:46 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Tt a potential human life until conception..
.
Why isn't a sperm or an egg potential human life?
Because all by itself it isn't going to grow up to be a baby. At conception all the ingredients are there to form a human being, a very particular human being defined by its genetic portrait, which will be formed in due time if nothing interferes. A sperm or egg alone isn't going to form a human being.
...so it is morally wrong to terminate it at any time from conception to birth.
Why is it morally wrong?
Because from conception on it is a developing human being, inevitably a human being, if nothing interferes.
Is it equally morally wrong to terminate at any point after conception, or is there a scale of increasing morally wrong from conception to birth?
As Tangle pointed out, subjectively we regard it as morally worse the further it has developed. But objectively it's already a human being from conception, just in an early stage of development. It engages our feelings and our conscience the farther along it is, but again that is a subjective standard of judgment.
Once it's underway and developing it is a potential human life so that if we kill it we know we are killing a potential human being and we know at some level this is wrong.
At what level do we know it is wrong,
I meant at some level of our consciousness we know it is wrong to kill what we know is a developing human being.
and why? Is "kill" the right term, or is it really just interrupting a process?
If it is a human being at different stanges of development, and not something else at any of those stages but always a human being, with all the genetic stuff of a human being, and growing inexorably moment by moment, then it is alive so killing is the right word. Calling a living human embryo or fetus a "process" is a sophistry intended to create emotional distance and rationalize killing it without moral implications.
I would prefer to call it simply a human being at different stages of life because the term "potential" distances us from its inherent humanness. All the concern to label each stage separately is just a way to obscure the fact that it is a human being at some stage or other of life.
Well, yes, of course, you'd like to adjust your terminology and rhetoric toward maximum emotional impact.
Because you are adjusting yours to turn a living human being into a "process" or other unhuman thing so you don't have to think of it in moral terms. Most women go ahead with abortions on the basis of having been told it's just a "piece of tissue" or some such emotionally neutral term, but I was told that and still dreamed of a living child; others are told that and still get deeply depressed; and if the pregnancy happens to be wanted it is regarded as a baby at every stage: nothing is different except whether it is wanted or not. How is that an objective standard for choosing whether it should live or die?
"Harm" was the term Tangle used, not "kill".
Not as a synonym. The idea as I understood it was that killing it is a harm, abortion is a harm.
I would argue against abortion myself except where the mother's life is threatened, and as Tangle pointed out, it would still be a "harm" even for that reason.
Given the multiplicity of contexts across which Tangle is applying the word "harm," is that really the right term?
He can correct me but that's how I understood him to be using the term: abortion under any circumstances is a harm. I believe he's been using it in the sense of the Hippocratic oath, "Do no harm" harm in the Hippocratic view including administering abortifacients.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Percy, posted 07-28-2018 8:46 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Percy, posted 07-29-2018 10:39 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 441 (837166)
07-28-2018 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
07-28-2018 10:09 AM


Re: after all the philosophical masturbation gets boring these issues remain
Phat writes:
So what does this have to do with Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion? It has to do with the attitudes that we as a people choose to embrace on an individual level. Your question about where we want to be headed brought all of this up in my mind.
I think that leads directly to the issue of whether we want a society based on reality or fantasy.
Everyone, whichever side of the abortion question they espouse, wishes abortions never happened.
But we tried criminalizing abortion and that did not stop abortions from happening, but it did hide them from view and discussion; it did create a fantasy world where it was easy to pretend that abortions almost never happened.
What is simply not being discussed are the actual means that could be implemented to replace the current situation and that needs to come from the side currently favoring a return to a fantasy world totally out of touch with reality; the so called "ProLife Cult".

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 07-28-2018 10:09 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 10:56 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 441 (837171)
07-28-2018 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
07-28-2018 10:38 AM


If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
What is simply not being discussed are the actual means that could be implemented to replace the current situation and that needs to come from the side currently favoring a return to a fantasy world totally out of touch with reality; the so called "ProLife Cult".
There's no point in discussing these things until there is more agreement on what abortion really is. But I already said that we'd have to emphasize helping women through unwanted pregnancies as is already done by many churches. We'd also have to do a major campaign to make it clear that abortion is the ending of a human life and stop the lies about how it's just "a piece of tissue" or a "process." Stopping the lies and promoting the truth would be a BIG start. That alone would probably eliminate a huge number of unwanted pregnancies.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 07-28-2018 10:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 07-28-2018 11:39 AM Faith has replied
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 07-28-2018 11:53 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 441 (837176)
07-28-2018 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
07-28-2018 10:56 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Again, that is just silly Faith.
We tried that in the past and it simply did not work; it is just more of your disconnect from reality.
You need to present some reality based models of how the issue would be addressed rather than just unsupported assertions like " Stopping the lies and promoting the truth would be a BIG start. That alone would probably eliminate a huge number of unwanted pregnancies."
Step away from the fantasy world and return to reality Faith.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 10:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 11:46 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 81 of 441 (837180)
07-28-2018 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
07-28-2018 11:39 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
What you need to do is stop the name calling and slander.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 07-28-2018 11:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 07-28-2018 12:05 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 82 of 441 (837181)
07-28-2018 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
07-28-2018 10:56 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
Stopping the lies and promoting the truth would be a BIG start.
Since you're only talking about your version of "The Truth", that ain't gonna happen. As long as you make it a "moral" issue, you're not going to get any agreement.
Make it a practical issue. Provide contraception to anybody who wants it at any time, any where. Stop telling young women that they're "ruining their lives" by getting pregnant. Provide women who have unplanned pregnancies with all of the support they can stand.
Instead of trying to prevent certain aspects of human behaviour, we should let people live their own lives and help them to make their lives as good as possible.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 10:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:06 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 441 (837183)
07-28-2018 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
07-28-2018 11:46 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
What you need to do is stop the name calling and slander.
But I have not called anyone any name or slandered anyone.
What is needed is for the ProLife Cult to move into the world of reality and address the model, method, mechanism, process or procedure to resolve the issues surrounding abortions.
Your simple repetition of the dogma of the Cult is not ever going to address the issues.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 11:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:10 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 84 of 441 (837184)
07-28-2018 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ringo
07-28-2018 11:53 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Truth is truth, it's not mine or yours or anybody's, it's just truth. So if you think it's not true then you need to argue with what I've already said above to demonstrate what the truth is.
And since I haven't promoted anything of the sort you re accusing me of you can stop that too.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 07-28-2018 11:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 07-28-2018 12:17 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 85 of 441 (837185)
07-28-2018 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by jar
07-28-2018 12:05 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
What is needed is for Planned Parenthood to stop lying to women about what pregnancy really is, allow them to understand that it really is a living child, let them see pictures of just how human it is at a very early stage, and offer them help to get through the pregnancy, help either for adoption or to keep it, and so on. Phasing out abortion in favor of emphasizing this kind ofhelp would be a place to start. And stop selling dead baby parts too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 07-28-2018 12:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 07-28-2018 12:21 PM Faith has replied
 Message 100 by Percy, posted 07-29-2018 10:57 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 86 of 441 (837187)
07-28-2018 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
07-28-2018 12:06 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
Truth is truth, it's not mine or yours or anybody's, it's just truth.
I would probably say the same thing - but what you call "truth" isn't.
Faith writes:
So if you think it's not true then you need to argue with what I've already said above to demonstrate what the truth is.
Well, I've shown that it clearly isn't true that abortion is murder. You seem to have backed off from that "truth" since the beginning of the thread.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:32 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 87 of 441 (837188)
07-28-2018 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
07-28-2018 12:10 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
What is needed is for Planned Parenthood to stop lying to women about what pregnancy really is, allow them to understand that it really is a living child, let them see pictures of just how human it is at a very early stage, and offer them help to get through the pregnancy, help either for adoption or to keep it, and so on. Phasing out abortion in favor of emphasizing this kind ofhelp would be a place to start. And stop selling dead baby parts too.
And so again you just repeat the dogma and offer no suggestions based on evidence or reality.
The Roe v. Wade decision came down in 1973.
Before that time abortions happened but were not recorded or reported so there is no way to tell if the numbers were any more or less than post Roe v. Wade.
Abortions were performed by anyone willing to perform an abortion; quite often people with absolutely no medical training.
Abortions were performed in any place where it could be kept relatively secret but usually not in a doctor's office or a hospital.
There was no follow up care or counseling.
Abortions were a cash only transaction and totally off the books.
Is that really where we want to see US society go?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:28 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 88 of 441 (837190)
07-28-2018 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by jar
07-28-2018 12:21 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
I am not proposing going back to the way things used to be, but what we've been doing since then is totally unnecessary and involves lies and the casual killing of human life, and surely we are capable of coming up with better solutions now.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 07-28-2018 12:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 07-28-2018 1:25 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 101 by Percy, posted 07-29-2018 11:01 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 89 of 441 (837192)
07-28-2018 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by ringo
07-28-2018 12:17 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Too much of these discussions are merely semantic, manipulating words to deny that it is a human life that is being taken in abortion. I can avoid terms like "murder" if it doesn't further the argument, but we're still talking about taking a human life from conception to birth and that is still a moral problem for most of us whether we want to admit it or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 07-28-2018 12:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 07-28-2018 12:44 PM Faith has replied
 Message 102 by Percy, posted 07-29-2018 11:04 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 90 of 441 (837193)
07-28-2018 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
07-28-2018 12:32 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
... we're still talking about taking a human life from conception to birth...
But you're not. You're not proposing to treat it like a human life. You're not proposing to treat the woman who terminates it the same as those who take a human life.
You are making it a different situation, so the question is how different.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:58 PM ringo has replied

  
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