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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 166 of 441 (837409)
07-31-2018 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Percy
07-31-2018 5:48 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Oh good Planned Parenthood may have acquired some sense, but I wouldn't count on it meaning they encourage thinking of it as a human being and, or have stopped emphasizing abortion as the best solujtion.
I'm not going to continue this argument, your usual hairsplitting nitpicking irrelevant nonsense won't yield to reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Percy, posted 07-31-2018 5:48 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Percy, posted 07-31-2018 8:48 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 167 of 441 (837412)
07-31-2018 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Faith
07-31-2018 8:08 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Describing how you feel and giving your opinion is not evidence.
Getting back to the topic, how do you know whether evangelicals were wrong back when they supported abortion or now when they don't?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 07-31-2018 8:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 07-31-2018 8:30 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 168 of 441 (837413)
07-31-2018 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Percy
07-31-2018 8:27 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
That is not what I did. I gave real evidence. Idiot.
How do I know evangelicals were wrpmg?. What you mean is "Who are you to tell anybody they are wrong?" If you don't see the reasoning, forget it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Percy, posted 07-31-2018 8:27 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Percy, posted 07-31-2018 9:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 169 of 441 (837415)
07-31-2018 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Faith
07-31-2018 8:17 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
Oh good Planned Parenthood may have acquired some sense, but I wouldn't count on it meaning they encourage thinking of it as a human being,...
Whether or not a fetus is a human being is unknowable. Planned Parenthood takes no position on this question.
...or have stopped emphasizing abortion as the best solution.
Planned Parenthood does not emphasize abortion as the best solution. This is from their Considering Abortion page:
quote:
Decisions about your pregnancy are deeply personal. You hold the power to make decisions that are best for you in order to stay on your own path to a healthy and meaningful life. There are lots of things to consider, and it’s totally normal to have many different feelings and thoughts when making this decision. That’s why it’s important to get factual, non-judgmental information about abortion. Support from family, friends, partners, and other people you trust can also be helpful. But at the end of the day, only you know what’s right for you.
You have a remarkable number of misimpressions about Planned Parenthood.
I'm not going to continue this argument, your usual hairsplitting nitpicking irrelevant nonsense won't yield to reason.
Gee, what a surprise, cast insults and abandon discussion. Who would ever have expected that?
But whether abortion is the taking of a human life isn't the topic. The topic is the evangelical abortion flip-flop.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 07-31-2018 8:17 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 170 of 441 (837418)
07-31-2018 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
07-31-2018 8:30 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
That is not what I did. I gave real evidence. Idiot.
You gave no evidence. You're doing what you always do, claim you've already provided evidence when you haven't.
How do I know evangelicals were wrong?. What you mean is "Who are you to tell anybody they are wrong?" If you don't see the reasoning, forget it.
The question could be asked in at least a couple ways. One way is to ask what evidence and reasoning you apply when comparing the relative validity of the opposite evangelical stances on abortion. Another way is to ask what evidence and reasoning came into play as evangelicals changed their stance on abortion.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 07-31-2018 8:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 171 of 441 (837424)
08-01-2018 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Faith
07-30-2018 8:54 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
And it does seem to me that most of the difficulties arise in people's minds because it is not thought of as a human life.
Yes, I agree.
Many people don't agree with your opinion because it is clearly not a human life during the early stages of pregnancy.
I don't see how you can deny that genetically the fertilized egg is human. If nothing interferes it will inexorably grow into a human being and everybody knows that without getting scientific about it.
Let's focus on this.
Because this is obviously not true.
Many things have to interfere after conception for an egg and sperm to grow into a human.
If nothing interfere's, the egg and sperm (and possibly even the mother) will die.
They need resources - nourishment, care and time.
How much nourishment?
How much care?
How much time?
How do we know when "enough" of any of these happens?
These are the questions we don't have answers to right now.
These are the questions that require answers in order to truthfully make any claim about where a "line" could be drawn.
Without those resources, the sperm and egg will simply die - as many sperms and eggs do.
Glossing-over of this implies that you're not focused on figuring out the truth of this matter - it implies you're willing to simply say anything in order to get anyone to agree with you.
I don't care about agreeing with you.
I care about the truth of this important issue.
Perhaps the truth will lead to me agreeing with you - I don't care.
Perhaps the truth will lead to me disagreeing with you - I don't care.
What I care about is understanding the truth and reality of this important issue as much as possible.
But since you do deny it, and you even deny its humanness at twelve weeks when most of us see a living baby there
I don't deny humanness at twelve weeks. I question it. Because it isn't obvious. And you haven't offered anything that makes it clear. It's not your fault, I don't think such information is available to us now (possibly ever?)
How about a month before its due date? Two months? Three months? and so on. Until you find the point at which you definitely don't think of it as human and definitely think abortion is a reasonable solution to what you regard as a difficult situation?
I know that at 2 weeks after conception it's not a human.
I know that when it can survive on it's own without being attached to machines or the mother - then it is a human.
Anywhere in between, I don't know. Might be. Might not be. I don't have answers to the required questions either.
I am, however, highly confident that any "line" would not be applicable to every situation... because it's obvious that different living things grow at different rates and gain traits at different times. For some babies the line may be closer to conception. For others it may be closer to birth. Does sucking a thumb mean it's human? I don't think so... but even if it did, not all of them suck their thumbs after 12 weeks. Some will never suck their thumb. To figure out these questions we will require much more information than we have available to us right now.
It does highly imply though - that anyone offering any "line" anywhere in the non-obvious stages - is completely wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 07-30-2018 8:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 08-01-2018 10:19 AM Stile has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 172 of 441 (837426)
08-01-2018 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Stile
08-01-2018 9:34 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Many people don't agree with your opinion because it is clearly not a human life during the early stages of pregnancy.
OK, so you are going by its appearsnce.
But if nothing interferes with its growth, it will grow to be a human being and we all know this, and this is the evidence that it is human at conception. "interfere" means opposes its natural growth, the way you are using it is not interference, it's just the natural environment in which it grows that is taken for granted in what I'm saying. Under normal circumstances it will grow into a clearly recognizable human being and we all know this and that's the evidence but I guess you can make your argument based on appearance.
I don't deny humanness at twelve weeks. I question it. Because it isn't obvious.
It's based on the ultrasound videos taken at that time in many pregnancies, which I have described. It is indeed obvious. The entire form is there from head to toes on the feet and fingers on the hands. You can tell the sex at that age, It keeps moving around, it's alive and it is a baby. It has a lot of developing to do but it is obviously a baby at that age, there is no question. There are videos of it at You Tube but most aren't as clear as the ones I saw of my two grandsons so I didn't pick one to link here.
I know that at 2 weeks after conception it's not a human.
So are you saying yhou want to draw the line at the point it looks to you like a human? Do you know what age that would be?
But my argument is that although it doesn't yet look like a human being it is human because we know it's got the DNA that will cause it to develop into a human and if we just leave it alone to develop normally it wilol become a human being. It's already got all the genetic stuff, and if everything is normal all we have to do is leave it alone.
But if you want to argue that it has to LOOK like a human being to be considered a human being I guess you can make thjat argument and define where it changes into a human being. Somewhere between say maybe eleven and thirteen weeks?
I am, however, highly confident that any "line" would not be applicable to every situation... because it's obvious that different living things grow at different rates and gain traits at different times.
Well, not really. One twelve-weeks ultrasound looks pretty much like another, all the same body parts apparent including toes and fingers, the sex identifiable, the baby moving around, and you can hear the heartbeat,
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Stile, posted 08-01-2018 9:34 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Stile, posted 08-01-2018 11:28 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 173 of 441 (837427)
08-01-2018 10:54 AM


For reference: A twelve-weeks ultrasound

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Stile, posted 08-01-2018 11:47 AM Faith has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 174 of 441 (837430)
08-01-2018 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
08-01-2018 10:19 AM


Eventually... means nothing.
Faith writes:
OK, so you are going by its appearance.
No. In fact, I'm more concerned with the mental development.
Some babies are born without certain limbs due to a handicap of one kind or another. These babies do not have the "entire human form" at any time. However, they are still just as "human" as I am as far as I'm concerned.
"interfere" means opposes its natural growth, the way you are using it is not interference, it's just the natural environment in which it grows that is taken for granted in what I'm saying.
...
But my argument is that although it doesn't yet look like a human being it is human because we know it's got the DNA that will cause it to develop into a human and if we just leave it alone to develop normally it will become a human being. It's already got all the genetic stuff, and if everything is normal all we have to do is leave it alone.
"Interfere" means "interfere."
You can't "leave it alone" it will die.
Why do I have to take something for granted and guess that when you use certain words you mean them in a special-case sort of way?
Why not just describe the reality of it - that the baby requires resources in order to grow into a human.
I agree that given the required resources and normal environment it will grow into a human.
Just like a separated egg and sperm - given the required resources and normal environment - will grow into a human.
Just like a man and a woman - given the required resources and normal environment - will eventually have sex and produce a baby that will grow into a human (proof - all of human history.)
The question isn't about "is this something that will grow into a human if we give it the normal resources and environment."
That question is easy and it's answered. The answer is yes.
This question, however, is useless in determining the morality of an abortion since this same, identical "yes" applies to so many previous conditions (like a man and a woman just being together).
The question is "is this a human?"
Where 'this' is a developing baby from many stages that are clearly not human into many stages that are clearly human.
That's the question that matters - if you're interested in searching for the truth of this issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 08-01-2018 10:19 AM Faith has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 175 of 441 (837431)
08-01-2018 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Faith
08-01-2018 10:54 AM


Re: For reference: A twelve-weeks ultrasound
Yes, I've seen many.
So - how do you know if this is human or not?
How much brain development has occurred at this point?
If a twelve-week old baby sucks it's thumb, is it known if this is a reflex/accident or if the baby is actually choosing to do so and controlling it's thumb using it's brain?
If a fully grown human's brain ceases to function autonomously - only reflex actions occur, but nothing controlled by the brain - we call this "brain dead." And sometimes kill the fully grown human (remove them from life-support.)
How would something like that apply to a developing baby?
When does a developing baby's brain get past what we would call 'brain-dead' on a fully grown human?
Is it possible to know this point from a scan?
I'm not saying that's "the line" that should be used.
But I am saying it sounds like a good place to start. Much better than when something merely takes on human physical form. Many handicapped babies will never take on an entire "human form" - yet I still consider them just as human as myself.
I think that using "physical form" as an indication that something "is human" is an attempt to appeal to emotion and get people to agree with you just because you want them to agree with you.
Emotionally - a man and a woman who haven't had sex yet are just as close to creating a human as a human-shaped-shell-with-no-brain would be.
That's not a very good judgement to use for considering the morality involved in ending a human life - if the "human life" isn't there, it doesn't matter what it looks like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 08-01-2018 10:54 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 08-01-2018 12:19 PM Stile has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 176 of 441 (837434)
08-01-2018 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Stile
08-01-2018 11:47 AM


Re: For reference: A twelve-weeks ultrasound
I think it was Heathen who said it has brain waves at this age, which shows some brain development. I'd guess it is possible to know when brain function develops, also when the heart begins beating, all those developmental things.
Isn't there pretty clearly a big difference between a brain-dead adult who we know is never going to come back barring a miracle, and a normally developing fetus whose brain is in the process of growing and will certainly become a fully functioning human brain if we don't kill it?
No, I present the image as objective evidence of its humanness, not as an appeal to emotion, because I personally find it compelling evidence in itself that it is human, though yes I would suppose most others do too -- particularly of course because it is ACTING alive, moving etc. If it was in fact brain-dead we're not talking about normal development. I know some babies are born without brains which is a horrible tragedy but I'm trying to keep the focus on normal development. If it was truly dead and not going to grow any more, it would be stillborn and that is something else, but we're talking about normal development from stage to stage.
But OK you want to define its humanness by brain function or other function rather than appearance or form? So are we still talking about finding the point before which you could advocate aborting it because it isn't human, and after which you couldn't?
I don't know when particular functions develop though I suppose the information is available. Do you think you could define the point I'm asking about? What functions would have to be present or absent?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Stile, posted 08-01-2018 11:47 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Stile, posted 08-02-2018 9:32 AM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 177 of 441 (837440)
08-01-2018 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Faith
07-31-2018 3:13 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
Just read what I've actually said and stop putting words in my mouth.
I'm not putting words in your mouth. I' m pointing out what the words mean. You're just parroting rhetoric without any understanding of the implications.
The fact is that nobody considers the fetus fully human. That's the point of the topic.
I'm saying that you don't consider the fetus fully human - despite your unthinking rhetoric - because you don't propose to give the fetus the same protection that we give to humans. You apparently want abortion to be illegal but you don't want to deal with the perpetrators - i.e. the women. You are at least humane enough to agree that they should not be punished - but what you refuse to think about is the implication that that diminishes the humanity of the fetus. Try pulling your head out of the right-wing phrasebook for once and think about what you're saying.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Faith, posted 07-31-2018 3:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 08-01-2018 1:24 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 178 of 441 (837441)
08-01-2018 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by ringo
08-01-2018 1:14 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
I'm sick of the sophistry and the mindless stupid accusations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 08-01-2018 1:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 08-01-2018 1:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 179 of 441 (837442)
08-01-2018 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Faith
08-01-2018 1:24 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
I'm sick of the sophistry and the mindless stupid accusations.
Then stop doing it. Instead of just blathering the same old rhetoric that we've been hearing from your crowd for decades, blow the dust off your brain and think through your own position for a change.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 08-01-2018 1:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 180 of 441 (837447)
08-01-2018 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Percy
07-31-2018 9:31 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:
You and Tangle are both refusing to recognize the uncertainties. You're both declaring that there are definite answers to what at heart are unanswerable questions.
No. Absolutely not. I have said that there are uncertainties and unanswerable questions.
The big issue is how do you deal with that fact that this is life not science or mathematics. You can’t simply say it’s unanswerable, you have to make a decision. How do you decide?
I think you start with your honest feelings and I would label anyone a psychopath that didn’t feel that the deliberate destruction of a human embryo was in some way a harm and something that should be avoided if possible. Can you at least admit that?
When do hills become mountains. When do harbors become seas? When does a fetus become a human being
? What should be clear to everyone, but apparently isn't, is that no one knows the answers to these questions because they don't have answers. What such questions tell us is that not all questions have answers
Wrong again. It is abundantly clear that there are no ‘answers’ but you still need to decide. So how do you do it? What do you feel is right.
I think you are avoiding your feelings. And that you’re avoiding speaking of them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Percy, posted 07-31-2018 9:31 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Percy, posted 08-01-2018 8:33 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 183 by Stile, posted 08-02-2018 9:45 AM Tangle has replied

  
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