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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House The Trump Presidency

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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 2301 of 4573 (837470)
08-02-2018 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 2297 by Percy
08-02-2018 9:24 AM


Re: Trump's Grocery Store ID Claim
I'm trying to remember the places where I am asked for photo ID.
When I bought my cell phone (ATT), I was required to show a picture ID as well as a bill of some sort to show proof of address.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2297 by Percy, posted 08-02-2018 9:24 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2302 by ringo, posted 08-02-2018 3:33 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 2303 of 4573 (837473)
08-02-2018 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2302 by ringo
08-02-2018 3:33 PM


Re: Trump's Grocery Store ID Claim
I do have a photo ID (actually, two: my passport and a state ID card). But I don't carry either of them with me except in the very few occasions I know that I'll need to show them to someone to transact my business.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2302 by ringo, posted 08-02-2018 3:33 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 2313 of 4573 (837490)
08-03-2018 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2312 by NoNukes
08-03-2018 4:35 PM


Re: Honest reporting from Fox News! Who woulda thought!
Well, evidently enough people watch him to bombard Fox with letters demanding he be fired any time he reports an actual fact.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2312 by NoNukes, posted 08-03-2018 4:35 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 2316 of 4573 (837497)
08-03-2018 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2295 by Percy
08-02-2018 8:51 AM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
For example, Kansas had a citizenship requirement until recently, but a judge struck it down in June, ruling that the National Voter Registration Act requires that states make it convenient to register, which means only having to swear you're a U.S. citizen under penalty of perjury.
To be more precise, Kansas had a requirement to provide proof that you're a citizen.
And just this past Wednesday, Kris Kobach was fined $26 000 for violating the judge's injunction to stop his nonsense.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2295 by Percy, posted 08-02-2018 8:51 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 2322 of 4573 (837509)
08-04-2018 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 2318 by Hyroglyphx
08-03-2018 9:47 PM


Expand the franchise!
The Netherlands, Sweden, Switzerland, etc all have some kind of sensible legislation ...or something as simple as disallowing a felon....
Just as a point of fact, all the European democracies, as far as I know, allow people convicted of felonies to vote once they've completed their sentences.
Those three countries in particular allow people to vote while they're in prison serving their sentences. (Well, actually, I'm not sure about the Netherlands; my quick internet search was giving me conflicting information.)
I don't know how you feel about that; are you sure that these countries are appropriate models for our own electoral policies? I'd think it'ss great if you do, but I just want to make sure you're being consistent when you insist we need to be "on par with, you know, the rest of the planet. "
Added by edit:
Oh, and howdy, Hyro. It's been a long time since we've chatted!
Edited by Chiroptera, : Typos.
Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2318 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-03-2018 9:47 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2336 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-04-2018 3:57 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 2349 by caffeine, posted 08-05-2018 10:08 AM Chiroptera has seen this message but not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 2324 of 4573 (837511)
08-04-2018 10:21 AM


No evidence for voter fraud
Wow! This article on the Guardian's website today is certainly timely.
Documents disprove White House voter fraud claims, says ex-member of Trump commission
I'm wondering whether this topic should get its own thread?
Anyway, as most of us may remember, Trump created a commission headed by Kobach to document the extensive fraud that is occurring in US elections. The commission was eventually disbanded, in part because most states' election officials, including the Republican ones, refused to cooperate beyond giving the commission (and usually requiring the legally mandated fees) the information that is publicly available.
Also disbanded in part because, even as Kobach was claiming that the commission was uncovering fraud they were denying other members of this very commission access to the documents that they were using.
Well, after going to court, the other members of the commission finally have access to the documents they were supposed to have access to because they were members of the bloody commission.
Matt Dunlap is one of members that finally has access to the documents.
The sections on evidence of voter fraud are glaringly empty, Dunlap reported in an official letter to Kobach and the vice-president, Mike Pence, the commission chair. After months of litigation that should not have been necessary, I can report that the statements by Vice Chair Kobach and the White House were, in fact, false.
What were the lies?
Kobach told Breitbart News at the time that the commission had found more than 8,000 instances of double voting in 21 states and close to 100,000 instances of voter fraud, even if fewer than 1,000 of them had resulted in a criminal conviction.
The materials are to be published.
Added by edit:
Minor correction: Technically, Pence was the head of the commission. But Kobach was the real driving force.
Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 2327 of 4573 (837514)
08-04-2018 11:27 AM


Republicans' voter suppression tactics
Here is an article from the New York Times from last year:
Some Republicans Acknowledge Leveraging Voter ID Laws for Political Gain
It is a list of examples where Republican officials are admitting the the goal of voter ID laws is really to lower the number of Democratic voters who go to the polls.
Money quote #1:
Also in Wisconsin, Todd Allbaugh, 46, a staff aide to a Republican state legislator:
I was in the closed Senate Republican Caucus when the final round of multiple Voter ID bills were being discussed. A handful of the GOP Senators were giddy about the ramifications and literally singled out the prospects of suppressing minority and college voters. Think about that for a minute. Elected officials planning and happy to help deny a fellow American’s constitutional right to vote in order to increase their own chances to hang onto power.
Money quote #2:
But [the previously cited examples of voting fraud] are isolated. And virtually all of them, including the allegations in the St. Louis case, involve schemes like manipulating absentee ballots or falsifying returns that voter ID laws could not detect, much less prevent.
The only fraud that such laws might stop misrepresentation at a polling place to cast an illegal ballot is vanishingly rare. And for good reason: To swing most elections, dozens or hundreds of fraudsters would have to conspire to commit easily detected felonies at polling places on behalf of their favored candidate.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 2328 of 4573 (837515)
08-04-2018 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 2326 by NoNukes
08-04-2018 11:26 AM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
In my state, it takes two steps to get a photo ID card.
First, I had to bring two forms of ID to a state DMV to "be put into the system". This involved traveling to another city; luckily, my job allows some flexibility to leave during business hours, and I had a retired friend who could drive me.
Then I had to bring the documentation they gave me to my local tag agent to actually get the ID. All for a crappy ID that doesn't even meet the standards of the REAL ID. (In other words, I can't even board a plane with it.)
-
I looked up how to register to vote in this state. Sure enough, all that is required is to download a form, fill it out, sign where you swear that you are over 18 years old, a US citizen, etc., and send it in. Without any documentation.
Supposedly, all you need to cast a vote is the cheesy card board registration card they send. I just found mine; I'm going to try using only that next time I vote.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2326 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2018 11:26 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2330 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2018 1:10 PM Chiroptera has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2331 by ringo, posted 08-04-2018 1:22 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 2332 of 4573 (837523)
08-04-2018 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2331 by ringo
08-04-2018 1:22 PM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
Heh. When I first voted - in Alaska in the 1980s - all I had to do is tell the poll workers my name. They had a list of all the people registered to vote at that station - they just crossed off my name and handed me a ballot. I may be remembering wrong, but I seem to recall that they were mildly amused that I bothered to take out my registration card to show them.
Sadly, I haven't really paid attention to the procedures in the other states in which I've voted. I'll certainly be more aware this November when I go to the polls.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2331 by ringo, posted 08-04-2018 1:22 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 2333 of 4573 (837526)
08-04-2018 2:04 PM


Oregon
I should point out that several states now have automatic voter registration: when you apply for a driver's license (or, in some cases, when you apply for anything in that state), you are automatically registered to vote. You can opt out, but you have to make that decision and tell the clerk. The default is that you are in; you have to opt out to not be registered. So far, Oregon is the only one that has had this long enough to have seen the effects in an election, and it has increased voter participation.
Oregon also does its elections through vote by mail. There are no polling stations, all voting is done by mail. Several weeks before the election, every registered voter is mailed a ballot appropriate for their election district. They fill it out, insert it into the security envelope, then that into the mailing envelope. They then either mail it in (but they have to make sure it's mailed early enough to arrive at the elections office on or before election day), or they can drop it off at a designated drop-off box (they must do this by 8:00 pm on election day). That has definitely increased voter participation.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 2338 of 4573 (837532)
08-04-2018 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 2337 by jar
08-04-2018 4:00 PM


Re: say what?
All states require its permanent residents to obtain a driver's license in that state if they plan on driving. Since that includes resident aliens, it is obvious that you don't need to show proof of citizenship to get a driver's license.
On the other hand, the allowed primary identification I needed to show to apply for my state ID was on a list that included things like a state birth certificate, a valid passport, a green card, and a few others, all of which would indicate whether I am or am not a citizen.
On the other, other hand, I just looked at my state ID. There is no indication whether I am or am not a citizen, and this ID will suffice to allow me to vote.
Edited by Chiroptera, : Corrected a typo. Thanks, NoNukes.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2337 by jar, posted 08-04-2018 4:00 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2339 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2018 5:25 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 2341 of 4573 (837536)
08-04-2018 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 2339 by NoNukes
08-04-2018 5:25 PM


Re: say what?
Sorry for the confusion. My intended point is that a driver's license is not proof of citizenship, yet people insist that presenting an ID like a driver's license will prevent non-citizens from voting.
Maybe some of these people live in states that do put citizenship status on their driver's licenses, but I bet the majority of citizens don't (although the REAL ID Act at least requires that driver's licenses issued to non-documented persons be distinguishable from REAL compliant IDs).
Considering the effort I had to go through and the documentation I already needed to possess to obtain my state's ID, I can see how an ID requirement would suppress voter registration and turn out.
And remember, my ID wouldn't even prevent non-citizen voter fraud to begin with.
And voter fraud isn't even a problem, besides.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2339 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2018 5:25 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2343 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2018 6:12 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 2342 of 4573 (837538)
08-04-2018 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2336 by Hyroglyphx
08-04-2018 3:57 PM


A summary of my feelings
As it stands in the US, however, you can't ever vote again.
Only in some states. Some states allow you to vote after your sentence has expired; others after you leave prison even if you're still on parole or probation. Vermont and Maine allow you to vote even if you are in prison.
But at any rate, it appears that there is something we agree on. At least partially.
-
I mean, am I really being so unreasonable?
Well, in my opinion, this is a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." There isn't a voting fraud problem in this country, at least not now. Maybe I'll change my mind if it starts becoming a problem.
On the other hand, it has been established that ID requirements reduce voting participation. Regardless how easy one may think it is to get an ID, I think that by itself is a bad thing.
Me, I feel that voting is a fundamental right. That means it is appropriate to apply a "strict scrutiny" standard (note: I'm not speaking as a lawyer here, just a citizen explaining my personal philosophy - don't read too much into my use of the phrase "strict scrutiny"), That is, if requiring an ID for voting infringes a person's rights - and to me, reducing voter participation is evidence all by itself that the right is being infringed - then the state must show that (1) there is a problem that needs to be addressed, and (2) that requiring an ID to vote is the least restrictive means of resolving that problem.
-
That's my opinion, of course. The whole point is that requiring an ID creates a problem. Meanwhile, there is no other problem that is being solved.
As I said, if there actually were signs that fraud at the polling station was becoming a problem, then we can discuss ways to resolve it. And perhaps requiring an ID would be one possible solution out of several that can be compared and discussed.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2336 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-04-2018 3:57 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 2345 of 4573 (837541)
08-04-2018 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 2343 by NoNukes
08-04-2018 6:12 PM


Re: say what?
...making it too easy to register might dilute the quality of the national electorate by including more people who knew little about the issues or the candidates.
That's pretty funny, coming from people who would never be elected by an electorate that understood the issues.
-
...then you don’t deserve that privilege....
This is a guy who doesn't understand the concept.
Voting isn't a privilege you need to earn; it's a right that you have.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2343 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2018 6:12 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 2363 of 4573 (837584)
08-06-2018 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2362 by ringo
08-06-2018 12:18 PM


The 14th Amendment
Even more appropriate:
...nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
I have to admit, though, that I am surprised that conservatives concede that they're against "fair treatment". I was raised to think that it's just basic decency, that you just do it without thinking.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2362 by ringo, posted 08-06-2018 12:18 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
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