|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: No Tangle, it's just that I'm honest. No, you're just making a useless debating point. This is real life and death, you do have an opinion, you know that it would be an enormous wrong to kill a baby just before birth.
The point you seem to have failed to understand is that my opinion, whatever it might be, is totally irrelevant to the issue when it comes to abortion. 'Your' opinion is short hand for society's opinion. If your own opinion mirrored sociey's we would allow abortion at term and that would be murder.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: But my opinion is not universal, it is my opinion and so irrelevant. Utter crap. The killing of babies at term is a universally abhorrent idea. You do not actually believe what you are saying. Unless, of course, you're a psychopath. In which case you're right, but need close watching.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Percy writes: How do you know we're the right people to make the decision? What established our right to do this or gave us jurisdiction? Who has the right to make a decision about locking someone up for a crime? For enforcing a speed limit? For preventing smoking in public places? Why do you think this decision is outwith public policy?
Oh, I didn't know you would permit me "women's choice" as an answer. I thought you were demanding I answer yes or no. I choose women's choice. You finally got off the fence. Are you sure you think it right to allow a woman to kill her baby a moment before birth? Really?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
NoNukes writes: No, Tangle, it is not. At a minimum, the health of the mother is always a concern, and without knowing the details, we cannot say that on balance that aborting a baby prior to the point where the mother's health is no longer at issue, is universally abhorrent and to be avoided. You have introduced a qualifyer. I did not and neither has Percy. Percy's only concern has been whether a foetus is life.
And in the US, the law current reflects what I consider to be a proper balancing. After the point at which we know the embryo is viable, we don't allow abortions unless a proper balancing is done. As do most modern societies. But note, the law is there to protect the foetus from a mother's (non-medical) choice to kill the foetus after that point. All other things being equal, a mother killing her baby a moment prior to birth would be breaking the law. Percy and Jar disagree with that law. You and I do not.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: What we have said is that the decision should not be simply based on a timeline, But the law that you say you agree with *is* based on a timeline.
that we do not have sufficient information, that we are not the people to make such decisions and that our personal opinions do not matter and are irrelevant. Well that's jolly useful on a debate forum. The world will just have to get along without your contributions to public health policy.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: What I said was that I do not have, and cannot have sufficient information to have an informed opinion and that I really should not have any opinion on the subject in general. So the only opinion you have about a woman deciding to kill her unborn baby 1/10 of a second before it is born is that you have no opinion. But 1/10 of a second later you do? Or do you not?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: The topic is abortion, not killing You think that killing a baby 1/10 of a second before it is born is different from killing a baby 1/10 of a second after? Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: The topic is abortion, not killing. With 1/10 of a second, the topic is killing. I understand why you wish to hide behind semantics but that's all you're doing. But if you insist, you think it ok to abort a foetus 1/10 second before birth but that it is wrong to kill a baby 1/10 of a second afterwards?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: What I have said, and what I continue to say, is that on the subject of abortion my personal opinion is irrelevant and rightly should have absolutely nothing to do with the issue of any abortion; and that decisions related to abortion should be made by the mother, possibly the father and the medical staff involved in that particular instance. So you feel that its entirely up to the woman if she kills/aborts her baby 1/10 of a second before birth and you feel ok with that?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Keep in mind that he mentioned that the decision should be on a case by case basis and should involve the parents(usually) and the medical professionals. That's all irrelevant Phat. His position is that it's none of his business, the mother can do as she sees fit. So the question becomes why should she be allowed to kill her baby 1/10 second before it is born but not 1/10 of a second after. (Assuming this is purely an elective abortion.).
You mentioned that the medical experts would tell us when such a date would be. Thus is it true that you advocate a definite point beyond which there is no option? Yes. Though that point will change as medical knowledge changes. Again, assuming a purely elective procedure.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: What I have said, and what I continue to say, is that on the subject of abortion my personal opinion is irrelevant and rightly should have absolutely nothing to do with the issue of any abortion; and that decisions related to abortion should be made by the mother, possibly the father and the medical staff involved in that particular instance. Do you say the same about a mother who kills her child 1/10 of a second after birth. If not why not?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Percy writes: I think you're obsessed. We've been over this. Tell me when life begins and I will, for the sake of discussion, assume your answer is accurate and use it to answer the question. Talking to you and Jar is like trying to hold on to a greased pig. Neither you nor I know when life begins and we never will. But that is irrelevant because we have to decide anyway. (We being society). The question is about whether a woman should be allowed to electively abort her foetus or not. And if so, when.
But that's not really what you want, which is for people to respond with answers about when life begins despite telling you many times they don't know. I don't care about when life begins! It's you that seems to think that accademic question matters to the decision.
Obviously you think there's an answer and that you know it, so congratulations on your certainty. How many fucking times does this have to be said. No-one knows when life begins and we never will. So let me try again. Do you believe that a woman should be able to abort her foetus just before it is born. To avoid further obfuscation and avoidance, I do not mean for medical reasons.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Stile writes: I don't know if any woman has ever had an abortion as a "purely elective procedure." Tens of thousands of women do this. They decide that having an unplanned child right now would be inconvenient for whatever reason.
To presume that everything will be fine if the baby just makes it past birth... is to ignore the complications involved in "being human I'm not saying anything about complications such as rape, medical emergencies or foetuses found to be with life damaging deformities. I'm trying to deal only with elective abortion and what people feel about it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: It is impossible to abort a child that has already been born. Which is why I didn't ask you that question. This is the question I asked. Do you say the same about a mother who kills her child 1/10 of a second after birth. If not why not?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ringo writes: The timeline you are trying to construct is both phoney and absurd. There is no exact "moment of birth", so talking about tenths of a second is just stupid. It was jar's timetable. He's now got it down to 1/1000 of a second. I'm happy to take whatever he offers. The point is not about exact timing, it's about what is different about a baby immediately before birth that makes it allowable to kill it? Of course I'm assuming that Jar believes that it's not ok to kill a baby immediately after birth. If he's not then he's a psychopath but at least he's consistent. (I shouldn't have to sat this but I will, I'm assuming there are no medical problems to blur the decision.)Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024