Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
0 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 268 of 441 (837691)
08-07-2018 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by jar
08-07-2018 12:34 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Jar writes:
And as I have repeatedly pointed out, that has nothing to do with the topic and yet again, 1/1000 or 1/100 or 1/10 or 1 or 10 or 100 or 1000 seconds after a birth I still feel such decisions need to be made by the mother, possibly the father, and the medical staff involved in that particular instance; my opinion is irrelevant, and should be irrelevant, to the issue.
Given your refusal to answer my question I'm going to take an enormous leap and say that you do not think it's right to kill a new born baby. And indeed, that you might even call it murder, like the law does.
So now I'd like to know what it is about a new born that is so different to the same baby 1/1000 of a second earlier such that the mother can kill it with impunity. If you wish to play semantics, I"m happy to use the phrase 'abort it with impunity'.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 12:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 2:44 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 269 of 441 (837692)
08-07-2018 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by ringo
08-07-2018 12:34 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Ringo writes:
Before conception, there is no fetus to terminate. After conception, there are different legalities in different jurisdictions. Just about all jurisdictions set the latest allowable time for termination at birth. In a given jurisdiction, the individuals involved make their decision within the legal restrictions or not.
There are no absolutes, no absolute time when it is "harm" or not, no absolute time when it is permissible or not.
Do you think you are telling me something I don't know and haven't already said a dozen times?
Aim your remarks at Jar. He thinks there's a difference between a foetus just before birth that allows the mother to kill/abort it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by ringo, posted 08-07-2018 12:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 08-07-2018 1:03 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 273 of 441 (837698)
08-07-2018 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by ringo
08-07-2018 1:03 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Ringo writes:
You don't seem to understand the "harm" angle.
I do.
That's what I'm saying to you: Neither you nor anybody else can just declare that there's no difference.
I'm claiming opposite. I'm waiting for Jar to explain that there is a difference and why.
Neither you nor anybody else can claim that there's a particular time when it becomes "wrong".
Yes I can and yes 'they' can. And, of course, the law already does.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 08-07-2018 1:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by ringo, posted 08-08-2018 12:09 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 275 of 441 (837701)
08-07-2018 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Stile
08-07-2018 1:04 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Stile writes:
That sounds like a dumbing down of the process involved to a silly level.
I don't think any woman choosing to go through with an abortion would describe the un-wanted child as being "inconvenient" for them.
Probably not, but that's the outcome. I can't have this baby, I need to go to colledge/persue my career/find the right guy/I've already got enough kids etc
Phrases like "inability to provide proper care for another human being" don't sound like something is merely "inconvenient."
And I'm not claiming all abortions are simply inconvenieces, just a large number of them are.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Stile, posted 08-07-2018 1:04 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Stile, posted 08-07-2018 3:33 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 276 of 441 (837702)
08-07-2018 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by jar
08-07-2018 2:44 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Jar writes:
I have answered your questions and answered them repeatedly
You have repeatedly avoided answering a direct question that is critical to the discussion. So I guess we're not going to get any futher.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 2:44 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 2:52 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 280 of 441 (837708)
08-07-2018 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by jar
08-07-2018 2:52 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Jar writes:
Once again you seem to me simply misrepresenting what I have said, but I do agree that until you learn to read we will not be able to get any further.
Just a reminder, I've asked you what the difference is between a new born baby and one just before birth that allows one to be killed at the whim of the mother but not the other. (Feel free to substitute 'abort' for kill as appropriate for you.)
Get back to me when you feel like answering.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 2:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 3:38 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 283 of 441 (837712)
08-07-2018 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Stile
08-07-2018 3:33 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Stile writes:
I don't think that's true either.
I would even go so far as to say possibly even none are.
Can you dig up one example even? - Where a woman had an abortion and her reason was that the baby was "simply an inconvenience?"
Most respondents to a survey of abortion patients in 1987 said that more than one factor had contributed to their decision to have an abortion; the mean number of reasons was nearly four. Three-quarters said that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities, about two-thirds said they could not afford to have a child and half said they did not want to be a single parent or had relationship problems. A multivariate analysis showed young teenagers to be 32 percent more likely than women 18 or over to say they were not mature enough to raise a child and 19 percent more likely to say their parents wanted them to have an abortion. Unmarried women were 17 percent more likely than currently married women to choose abortion to prevent others from knowing they had had sex or became pregnant.
Why do women have abortions? - PubMed
Or
Table 3
Percentage of women citing each reason for seeking an abortion, various countries and years
Sweden, 2009 United States, 2004 United States, 2008—2010
Wants to postpone childbearing — 27 —
Wants no (more) children 21 47 —
Not financially prepared 32 56 40
Interferes with future opportunities (education, work) — 54 20
Partner-related 32 55 31
Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy 1 25 —
Risk to maternal health 8 11 —
Risk to fetal health 1 11 —
Risk to maternal/fetal health — — 12
Not the right time for a baby 60 — 36
Need to focus on other children — — 29
Not emotionally or mentally prepared — — 19
Want a better life for the baby than she could provide — — 12
Not independent or mature enough for a baby — — 7
Influences from family or friends — — 5
Don’t want a baby or place baby for adoption — — 4
Other 1 25 1
N 773 1160 954
Reasons why women have induced abortions: a synthesis of findings from 14 countries - PMC
You can quibble about the definition of 'inconvenient' now if you like but I'm not joining in. Many/most of reason above are the reasons I've described are inconveniences.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Stile, posted 08-07-2018 3:33 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Stile, posted 08-08-2018 9:51 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 289 of 441 (837731)
08-08-2018 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Percy
08-07-2018 12:24 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:
Why does society have to decide?
Because that's what society does - it makes policy to protect it's citizens. We have decided that we need to protect the rights of the unborn as well as the born.
Why isn't it the woman's choice?
And why should it be? A mother can not kill her baby when it is outside her body why should she be able to when it is within her? The question that you and Jar refuse to answer is critical. What is different about the baby immediately before birth that would give the mother the right to kill it?
I don't think a true abortion is possible just before birth. How would the abortion be accomplished except by inducing labor, which would produce birth, not an abortion.
So are you talking about killing the fetus (in which case the answer depends upon when life begins) or aborting the fetus (which likely isn't possible)?
How about we abandon the semantics and think about the principles.
If you believe that it's the woman's choice what happens to her baby while it's within her does she have the right to, let's say terminate, her pregnancy right up to the moment of birth? If not, why not?
Then all you have is your feelings that you're trying to impose on others.
Yes as I've said repeatedly, it's the feelings of people that form our laws. We collectively feel that theft is wrong so we punish it. These are moral issues that have non-objective groundings. We collectively feel that it is wrong to kill a baby just before birth so our laws prohibit it. Your feelings may be different and Jar pretends his are but I doubt they are actually much different. But if they are very different we take the views of the majority as best we can given the way our institutions are structured.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Percy, posted 08-07-2018 12:24 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Percy, posted 08-08-2018 8:48 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 293 of 441 (837736)
08-08-2018 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by Percy
08-08-2018 8:48 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:
Can the unborn be considered citizens if they have no birth certificate?
Both our societies have decided that the unborn child has rights. I agree with that.
Which unborn should society protect? Zygotes? Blastocysts? Embryos? Fetuses?
Or answering the same question again but based on time instead of state: After 1 week? 5 weeks? 10 weeks? 20 weeks? 30 weeks? 40 weeks?
Or answering the same question again but based on developmental characteristics: At conception? When there's a ball of cells? At implantation? When there's a head? When there's a heart? When there's a heartbeat? When there are fingernails? When it begins moving?
I think we have it about right now.
Isn't the answer obvious?
No. Obviously not. How about the rights of the father? How about the rights of the unborn child?
When is it alive? You can only kill what is alive.
Are you saying that a baby moments before birth is not alive? The opposite of alive is dead, are you saying that the baby that has a beating heart a functioning brain and in 1 minutes time will be deserving of a birth certificate is dead then miraculously becomes alive?
Jar and I *have* answered the question many times (we don't know). I'd like to answer your question, I really would, but in practical terms I don't see how it's possible to terminate a pregnancy just prior to the moment of birth. Let's say the woman is 10 cm dilated and the crown of the head is visible, likely just a very few more pushes are necessary, but suddenly the woman announces, "I'd like to terminate." How would that work exactly? That's a rhetorical question. I'm just trying to clear about why I don't see how terminating a pregnancy just before birth is possible.
I do not believe that you think that it would be ok for a mother to terminate/abort/kill her unborn baby just before birth. If a woman stuck a knitting needle through her cervix and skewered her baby moments before it was born you could not be philosophically neutral about it - could you? Could you say that it's a woman's choice to do that? Please don't reply that in this circumstance the woman is likely to be mentally ill. I'm trying to establish that you do know, it's just that you can't trust your feelings about it.
I won't argue about the degree to which feelings govern our current laws, but will just say that we should strive for objectivity as opposed to subjectivity in our laws.
The law is a combination of subjective and objective. We feel bad about both rape and murder but rank murder worse. Punishment is arranged in ladders of increasing harm. It's a rational system based on feelings. Feelings are real too and can, if necessary be measured objectively.
Uh, I think a strong argument can be made that theft is objectively wrong.
And how would we know? The test is whether it harms another. How much is the harm? Is it worse than rape? Is stealing from a pensioner worse than stealing from a bank? I think killing an unborn baby moments before it is born one of the worse crimes a person could commit, you can't decide whether it's a crime at all.
You keep switching back and forth from one message to the next between killing versus aborting the baby. Those are not the same thing, so which one are you arguing?
Yes I know. The reason is that abortion is a euphemism for killing. Let's quit messing about, the termination of a foetus kills it. Cells are alive, cells can be killed. Whether we call that 'life' as in an independent, living organism or not, what we're doing is killing the developing foetus.
If the law of the land were that men must be circumcised by age 12, how would men feel about the law's right to say what they should do with their bodies? Should there be such a a law?
Is a foreskin the equivalent of a human foetus?
In the same way, if the law of the land said that women have no say about terminating their pregnancy after some point that society chooses, how should women feel about the law's right to say what they should do with their bodies? Should there be such a law?
That was the case for many years. In the end society decided that it was less harmful to allow regulated abortion. That seems a reasonable outcome.
Maybe there should, but then society has to answer the question: When does life begin?
It wasn't necessary to answer that question when introducing the current policy was it? Or rather, we decided to fluff the question and say that termination could be allowed at 12 weeks which was the point that medics decided they could keep a baby alive outside the woman. We don't need an answer to your question to do what we feel is right.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Percy, posted 08-08-2018 8:48 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Percy, posted 08-08-2018 1:19 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 297 of 441 (837740)
08-08-2018 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by Stile
08-08-2018 9:51 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Stile writes:
The reasons for having any abortion are complicated.
They're not normally complicated, but I'm sure they can be very difficult.
No, they are not.
Yes they are
You are simply choosing to see them that way.
You are simply choosing not to see them that way.
Again - do you deny that having a child is a life-changing event that goes on for 20+ years?
Actually it goes on for life. It's a massive inconvenience.
How can you honestly imply that choosing against a 20+ year life-changing event is equivalent to avoiding "an inconvenience?"
I can do that very easily when I read the reasons given for it. 'Interferes with study, career, husband etc.
If you're going to label the reasons any woman has for getting an abortion as not wanting to deal with an inconvenience - you are heavily implying that you think having a baby is barely life-altering at all.
Nope
If you don't want to search for the truth of this matter - feel free to keep a vice-grip on your opinions against the facts.
You've been shown the facts. Feel free to avoid the conclusion that many if not most women chose abortion because it would interfere with the way they want their life to be at the moment.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Stile, posted 08-08-2018 9:51 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Stile, posted 08-08-2018 11:56 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 301 of 441 (837745)
08-08-2018 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Stile
08-08-2018 11:56 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Stile writes:
"Massive" inconvenience now? That's what I'm saying.
I thought you were saying it was a "simple" inconvenience.
It's an inconvenience having children. It's also amazing, rewarding, expensive, heart breaking etc etc. But it's also an inconvience because it interferes with your life when you don't want it to. If you chose to abort a pregnancy because, say, you want to go to college or get on with your career you are chosing not to be inconvenienced by by a baby.
Thank-you for agreeing with the point I was trying to make.
Try not to be childish.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Stile, posted 08-08-2018 11:56 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Stile, posted 08-08-2018 12:58 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 302 of 441 (837746)
08-08-2018 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by ringo
08-08-2018 12:09 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Ringo writes:
There is no such thing as "the" law.
I really don't recommend testing that idea.
There is nothing absolute about it.
Sure there is, if you drink drive you'll lose your licence. If you steal you'll be punished. If you murder you'll go to jail.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by ringo, posted 08-08-2018 12:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by ringo, posted 08-08-2018 1:06 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 318 by jar, posted 08-08-2018 5:23 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 304 of 441 (837748)
08-08-2018 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Stile
08-08-2018 12:58 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Stile writes:
The word "inconvenience" generally implies a limited or small interference.
The use of a phrase such as "massive inconvenience" would therefore be an oxymoron.
I said you would quibble about what 'inconvenience' meant.
Your insistence on using a term that adds confusion to the scale on which the decision is being made says more about the motives for your argument then it does about any honest search for reality or truth attached to the situation.
The majority reasons people give for aborting their baby are ones of lifestyle - people simply don't want the baby at that particular time because it interferes with what they had planned. I call that an inconvenience you can call it what you like, the fact is they are choosing their planned life over their baby's life.
I've said my piece on this side-issue, your call on how you'd like to proceed.
That's up to you.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Stile, posted 08-08-2018 12:58 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 306 of 441 (837750)
08-08-2018 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by ringo
08-08-2018 1:06 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
ringo writes:
Did you deliberately pick a bad example? Drunk driving laws vary widely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, just like abortion laws. There is no universal agreement.
So what? Any place you go the law there is absolute and real.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by ringo, posted 08-08-2018 1:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by ringo, posted 08-08-2018 1:36 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 309 of 441 (837753)
08-08-2018 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Percy
08-08-2018 1:19 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy.
I'm going to ignore most of your reply because it's all been done several times. And I'm bored with it. I'll pick out a couple of points.
You keep insisting you know my thinking, so let me comment a bit about your own. You think that because you haven't been able draw an admission that life begins at conception
I don't think life begins at conception and I've never said that life begins at conception. Moreover, even if I did think that life begins at conception I've said that it would be irrelevant to the debate.
Ok?
Once you obtain that admission you'll push for earlier and earlier admissions of when life began until you reach conception. And you're somehow going to do this based upon how you feel.
Weird how we can discuss this for so long and you can be as wrong as this. Which you'll now say is all my fault...
Okay, so possibly because you do recognize that abortion at this point makes no sense, you're going with the kill scenario. Is the fetus alive at this point? Despite that you won't answer this question, everything you say points to you believing that the fetus is alive just before birth. If you are correct then that means it *can* be killed (as opposed to things which are not alive and so cannot be killed), and killing it would be murder.
Of course the foetus is alive the moment before birth - how could it not be. Is it dead? Does it only come alive after birth? What an insane question.
My question is not a real scenario, it's a moral thought experiment, like the trolley problems - it's intended to unpick this dilemma. If you allow the woman to skewer the baby the moment before birth because you believe it to be the woman's choice, why do you not allow it a moment after? What has changed? It's a big moment, on one-side is death on the other is life. Why has the moral imperative changed?
If you're doing what you feel is right does that makes it okay?
Not I, we. The collective, majority opinion. We try to do what's right given what we know and feel when forced to make a decision/policy. That's all we can do.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Percy, posted 08-08-2018 1:19 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Percy, posted 08-08-2018 3:12 PM Tangle has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024