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Author Topic:   Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate?
Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 61 of 338 (837910)
08-10-2018 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by ringo
08-10-2018 6:30 PM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
ringo writes:

Faith writes:


There is no "redistribution of wealth" there at all...

Of course there is. Don't be silly. The whole point was to prevent people from being financially ruined forever. The money they would have paid was kept for their own (more productive) use.

No, it was simply mercy to the poor who couldn't pay their debts. There wouldn't have been any money to be "kept" because they would have paid the debt if they'd had it.

...no coercion as in socialistic systems that control everybody....

You're making a strawman of socialism.

Fraid I'm not. There are hybrid forms of socialism that are less totalitarian but the tendency of socialism is always toward totalitarian oppression in the hands of government. It's the complete opposite of the concepts of personal freedom so hard-won over the centuries before the US Constitution aimed to establish such freedoms as a principle of governance. But as John Adams and others of the Founders said in various ways, our system of government can only work well for a religious and moral people, "it is wholly inadequate for the governing of any other." Well, we've been losing our character as a "religious and moral people" for quite some time now, well beyond the point where such freedoms can be safely granted and the corporate federation still hold together, so we've become ripe for totalitarian oppression, of which socialism is a form.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 08-10-2018 6:30 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-10-2018 8:18 PM Faith has responded
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JonF
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Posts: 4211
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 62 of 338 (837911)
08-10-2018 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
08-10-2018 5:58 PM


Re: Trump's Parents-in-Law Use Chain Migration Which He Hates
No, a bigot is a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.
This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 63 of 338 (837912)
08-10-2018 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by JonF
08-10-2018 7:06 PM


Re: Trump's Parents-in-Law Use Chain Migration Which He Hates
Incorrectly used by the usual suspects here though, since not one word of that applies rightly to me. What I said is the truth, I'm talking about cultural and ideological differences, not race. It takes a mush-minded political-correctness-controlled leftist to see racism in that, let alone mental rigidity or hatred or intolerance, which are far from my character or point of view. You really have no idea how such ideas are simply canned PC propaganda that take the place of thinking.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1247
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 64 of 338 (837917)
08-10-2018 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
08-10-2018 6:45 PM


Which socialism?
quote:

There are hybrid forms of socialism that are less totalitarian but the tendency of socialism is always toward totalitarian oppression in the hands of government

Bernie Sanders demolished this scare tactic and appealed to broad cross-sections of Americans.

Even conservatives are really showing awareness of the very real differences between Scandinavian "socialism" and North Korean communism.

Donald Trump is remembered for the "blood from her wherever" comment directed at the moderator of the August 2015 debate, but he should be remembered for yelling at his demagogic Republicans the list of countries that Single Payer healthcare works well in.

As President, he told the Australian leader, "you have a better health care system than we do" (close to what he said) in front of an international media.

Socialism just isn't the dirty word it used to be. (the attack never gets old though, huh?)

People know that higher per capita incomes mean less than was once thought. There needs to be a way to make sure that progress is reflected in the quality of living (or at least reflected in the quality of the safety net when people fall down) for all people.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 08-10-2018 6:45 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 08-10-2018 8:22 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 65 of 338 (837918)
08-10-2018 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by LamarkNewAge
08-10-2018 8:18 PM


Re: Which socialism?
Scandinavian socialism is the hybrid type I mentioned. Some people here call the normal functions of government "socialism" and I don't want to get into all that except to say that highway construction and other public works are not socialism. But socialism does tend to totalitarianism. Americans, and probably most Republicans, are ignorant of these things. And I don't claim to know much about it either except these general things.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-10-2018 8:18 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-10-2018 8:27 PM Faith has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1247
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 66 of 338 (837919)
08-10-2018 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
08-10-2018 8:22 PM


Re: Which socialism?
I associate public education (promoted by Marx) with progress, and it specifically was crucial in moderating people and causing us all to move AWAY from old mindsets that were congenial towards tyranny and lack of freedom.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 08-10-2018 8:22 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1247
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 67 of 338 (837920)
08-10-2018 8:35 PM


What about "there shall be open borders" in the constitution as conservatives support
Robert Bartley is noteworthy for his 5 line proposed amendment.

Robert Leroy Bartley (October 12, 1937 – December 10, 2003) was the editor of the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal for more than 30 years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bartley

Here is what one gets when putting those 5 words into google.

quote:

Open Nafta Borders? Why Not? - WSJ

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB994028904620983237
Jul 2, 2001 - He can rest assured that there is one voice north of the Rio Grande that supports ... a constitutional amendment: "There shall be open borders.".

open borders - BizzyBlog

www.bizzyblog.com/ThereShallBeOpenBorders_WSJ070384.html

If Washington still wants to "do something" about immigration, we propose a five-word constitutional amendment: There shall be open borders. Perhaps this ...

OPEN AND SHUT IMMIGRATION - The Washington Post

https://www.washingtonpost.com/...15e-4b88-a2e7-0418351c3c64
Jul 2, 1995 - In imbibing their doctrine straight, their vision has become so blurred ... for a five-word constitutional amendment: "There shall be open borders.

Quotable quotes | Open Borders: The Case

https://openborders.info/quotable-quotes/

Abraham Lincoln (see also the Open Borders blog post, Abe Lincoln would be a ... They will come in their weakness, we shall meet them in our strength.

Robert Bartley - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bartley

Robert Leroy Bartley (October 12, 1937 – December 10, 2003) was the editor of the editorial ... immigration debate of 1984 we suggested an ultimate goal to guide passing policies--a constitutional amendment: 'There shall be open borders.'" ...

Bernie Sanders's fear of immigrant labor is ugly — and wrongheaded ...

https://www.vox.com/...9/9048401/bernie-sanders-open-borders

Jul 29, 2015 - ... editor Robert Bartley once proposed: "There shall be open borders. ... There are two problems with Sanders's view on this, one empirical and ...

Wrong On The Founders | National Review

https://www.nationalreview.com/.../wrong-founders-john-fonte

Jul 14, 2003 - ... celebrate Independence Day by publishing an editorial endorsing a constitutional amendment proclaiming that “there shall be open borders.

Rupert Murdoch's Open Borders Wall Street Journal Warns: 'Bad Sign ...

https://www.breitbart.com/...rders-wall-street-journal-warns...

Jan 28, 2016 - The Wall Street Journal, like Murdoch, is decidedly open borders. ... a five-word constitutional amendment: There shall be open borders.”.

Why Democrats should support open borders | Reece Jones | Opinion ...

https://www.theguardian.com/...-policy-open-borders-dreamers
Feb 16, 2018 - In the face of this recalcitrance, the Democrats must rethink their ... a five word amendment to the US constitution: “There shall be open borders.

Let Them In: WSJ Editor Argues for Open Borders - NewsBusters

https://www.newsbusters.org/...sj-editor-argues-open-borders

May 18, 2008 - But there is one area in which the editorial page's policy diverges strikingly ... The case for open borders is a case for moving our immigration ...



Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 338 (837926)
08-11-2018 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by JonF
08-10-2018 7:06 PM


Re: Trump's Parents-in-Law Use Chain Migration Which He Hates
No, a bigot is a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

I find it fascinating how similarly Faith, Laura Ingraham, and David Duke have presented their views on this subject this past week. Of the three folks, it is only Faith who has had the honesty to call herself a bigot.

ABE: Spell Ms. Ingraham's name properly.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 69 of 338 (837927)
08-11-2018 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by NoNukes
08-11-2018 12:49 AM


Multiculturalism is a Satan-inspired weapon for destroying Christian culture
I like Laura Ingraham, saw a bit of her comments and have pretty much forgotten what she said, but I refuse to fault her. Didn't see David Duke's comments and generally don't support him.

But what goes on here is really quite scary because it is Big Brother in spirit, determined to prevent anyone from thinking outside the party box. You are a bigoted comrade leftist that cannot tolerate anyone who actually thinks rather than toeing the party line. We can't compare cultures any more, can we? Certainly can't consider a Christian culture superior to a pagan culture. No, we now have Multiculturalism (one of the destructive concepts birthed from Cultural Marxism aimed at destroying America and Western Civilization), which declares that there are no differences between radically different cultures and ideologies cuz golly gosh that would be hate and bigotry, never mind that it has nothing to do with hate and bigotry, it's just a way to silence people who aren't on board with the leftist agenda. This is what Liberal Fascism is. I wonder if any of you will wake up to what you are really doing.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

Political Correctness is Cultural Marxism

If fascism comes to America it will be in the form of liberalism -Ronald Reagan


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 70 of 338 (837930)
08-11-2018 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by LamarkNewAge
08-10-2018 8:35 PM


Re: What about "there shall be open borders" in the constitution as conservatives support
Yes, Open Borders is one of the battering rams against Christian culture that has become very popular these days, as Leftist views in general have become popular. All you are proving is that this evil idea is indeed popular. Well, Hitler had his millions of followers too. I'm sure Pope Francis supports it too, being a good leftist Jesuit antichrist Pope who would like to see the papacy regain its former ascendancy over western civilization that was lost to the Protestant Reformation, which America once strongly represented. I'm sure we could find lots of Jesuits espousing Open Borders if we just took a glance around.

You can still repent though and fight on the side of righteousness instead of supporting the Antichrist.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

Political Correctness is Cultural Marxism

If fascism comes to America it will be in the form of liberalism -Ronald Reagan


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-10-2018 8:35 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 71 of 338 (837935)
08-11-2018 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by LamarkNewAge
08-10-2018 8:27 PM


Re: Which socialism?
I associate public education (promoted by Marx) with progress, and it specifically was crucial in moderating people and causing us all to move AWAY from old mindsets that were congenial towards tyranny and lack of freedom.

really weird reversal of the truth there.

Universal education was originally a Christian project, and literacy was promoted to foster the reading of the Bible. Universities were begun way back there somewhere as Christian institutions for the training of Christian pastors and teachers. All the Ivy League universities began with that aim. The Bible and various Catechisms and Confessions of Faith were the reading material for teaching children in the US in the early years.

Marx's idea of "progress" simply isn't progress, and whatever he did to inspire public education could only have been subversive of what public education already existed, and could only lead to the murderous totalitarianism his ideas did in fact spawn despite all this effort to pretend they didn't. Marx was a Satanist and his work has borne the fruit of Satanism which is founded in the hatred of humanity.

Satan worked to undermine Christianity, introduce false doctrine into the churches, get them well "liberalized" and dilute the true faith. As Christianity lost its power for good in society due to this satanic influence then a door was opened to all the evil ideologies he invented to replace it, such as Darwinism, Marxism and Freudianism. What is taken for progress is really a recipe for the destruction of Christian society by the destruction of Christian morality.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(2)
Message 72 of 338 (837936)
08-11-2018 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Faith
08-11-2018 4:05 AM


No Faith, Universal Education was a concept of Mohammad.
Faith writes:

Universal education was originally a Christian project, and literacy was promoted to foster the reading of the Bible.

I'm sorry Faith but that is simply not true and not true by almost a thousand years. It was Mohammad who promoted universal education so that everyone could read the glorious Qur'an.

The Muslims were the great educators and their universities far outstripped anything seen in the world before or really since. The pinnacle was Muslim Spain from around 700 until 1492 when barbaric Christianity invaded Spain.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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RAZD
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Posts: 19567
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 73 of 338 (837937)
08-11-2018 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by jar
08-11-2018 6:47 AM


Re: No Faith, Universal Education was a concept of Mohammad.
The Muslims were the great educators and their universities far outstripped anything seen in the world before or really since. The pinnacle was Muslim Spain from around 700 until 1492 when barbaric Christianity invaded Spain.

Indeed, and that educated muslim world is where the scientific method was first developed:

quote:
http://www.firstscientist.net/...entist - Alhazen Biography

Known in the West as Alhazen, Alhacen, or Alhazeni, Abu Ali al-Hasan ibn al- Hasan ibn al-Haytham was the first person to test hypotheses with verifiable experiments, developing the scientific method more than 200 years before European scholars learned of it—by reading his books.

Born in Basra in 965, Ibn al-Haitham first studied theology, trying unsuccessfully to resolve the differences between the Shi'ah and Sunnah sects. Ibn al-Haitham then turned his attention to the works of the ancient Greek philosophers and mathematicians, including Euclid and Archimedes. He completed the fragmentary Conics by Apollonius of Perga. Ibn al-Haitham was the first person to apply algebra to geometry, founding the branch of mathematics known as analytic geometry.

A devout Muslim, Ibn al-Haitham believed that human beings are flawed and only God is perfect. To discover the truth about nature, Ibn a- Haitham reasoned, one had to eliminate human opinion and allow the universe to speak for itself through physical experiments. "The seeker after truth is not one who studies the writings of the ancients and, following his natural disposition, puts his trust in them," the first scientist wrote, "but rather the one who suspects his faith in them and questions what he gathers from them, the one who submits to argument and demonstration."


Sounds like a book worth reading.

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 74 of 338 (837938)
08-11-2018 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by jar
08-11-2018 6:47 AM


Re: No Faith, Universal Education was a concept of Mohammad.
Well, no. The phrase is UNIVERSAL EDUCATION, the attempt to make sure that everyone gets a basic education, and googling it discovers that it is in fact very recent, just a few hundred years, and western.

You are right that there were universities and education of children in other places earlier. Nevertheless education for children in America was based on the Bible and Christian documents.

European universities evolved from the monasteries and medieval churches, and American universities were specifically founded to train Christian pastors and teachers.

The Muslim university, however, was not founded in Spain but in Morocco, and apparently there was a university in India that was even earlier. And your history of Spain is wacko from a number of angles.

But this is getting away from the topic of what Marx supposedly contribguted to public education. Not much.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(2)
Message 75 of 338 (837939)
08-11-2018 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by RAZD
08-11-2018 7:40 AM


Re: No Faith, Universal Education was a concept of Mohammad.
There was even more. As Islam spread Arabic became the lingua franca of the world. And with the emphasis on education most of the existing books from every society were translated in Arabic and copied into the great libraries throughout Andalusian Spain. At the time when a great library in Christian Europe might have fifty books there were literally dozens of libraries each with thousands of books in every one of the major Andalusian cities.

While the original intent of the education Mandate by Mohammad was religious in nature the unintended consequence had far greater impact bringing scholars and the accumulated knowledge from as far away as China and India to Andalusian Spain where a common language allowed Jew and Christian and Muslim and Hindu and Buddhist and Taoist to freely exchange their knowledge and experiences.


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