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Author | Topic: Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Faith writes: How can you just keep going on that way asserting this and that when you've offered not one iota of evidence of the one thing I asked it for: that he did in fact establish universal education. Even evidence of his mentioning it somewhere would be a start, but the original context was where it actually got established. Maybe because the results are more important than the origin, but if you had ever read the Glorious Qur'an you would know that read is the first command revealed and that reading is commanded of every man.
quote: The Madrasa system existed from the beginning of Islam and Muhammad was the first teacher. The basic was to teach people how to read and write the Qur'an but the madrasa covered far more subjects as well. There were two basic systems founded under the Sunni and Shia chapters of Club Islam, the Shia branch founded in Cairo in 969 and the Sunni branch in Iran around 1000. Source: the Qur'an and also Encyclopedia dot com as well as the fact that the Universities spread throughout the Islamic world at a time when Christians lived in the Dark Ages. But again, the topic is immigration and the fact that Christianity has a long history of being anti-education is pretty much irrelevant just as the fact that even today much of Christianity is based on avoiding learning and education and relying on dogma.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: You do make a good point about Islam's contribution to global culture...specifically Western culture...but I think that you tend to generalize Christians and lump them into this category of avoidance of reality when in fact not all of us are like that. Unlike Faith, I have no problem with multiculturalism nor immigration provided it is regulated to some extent in order to preserve our middle class rather than force a bunch of old people to compete with a much younger world. But again, the topic is immigration and the fact that Christianity has a long history of being anti-education is pretty much irrelevant just as the fact that even today much of Christianity is based on avoiding learning and education and relying on dogma. Edited by Phat, : took out a "not"Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: You do make a good point about Islam's contribution to global culture...specifically Western culture...but I think that you tend to generalize Christians and lump them into this category of avoidance of reality when in fact not all of us are like that. That does not change the facts that show Christianity for most of its history was anti-education and anti-knowledge. Remember that much of science learning was hindered by the Christian Church and that even much later when Christian Schools were created their primary purpose was to propagate dogma. Even today there are many, predominately Protestant Christian Colleges and Universities that are still avoidance schools and at the pre-college level there are whole Christian School systems Accredited by Avoidance Accreditation Systems teaching Avoidance curricula whose sole purpose is to propagandize based on the Cult's Dogma.
Phat writes: Unlike Faith, I have no problem with multiculturalism nor immigration provided it is regulated to some extent in order to preserve our middle class rather than force a bunch of old people to compete with a much younger world. Yes Phat, we know you fear having to actually compete. But the topic is not about what's good for just Phat.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
We think of it as more of a salad than a stew. Healthier. And we're willing to learn as well as teach.
The melting pot means learning and living by the great truths of western civilization.... Faith writes:
Your viewpoint is understood all to well. That's why we want to improve on it. How sad that this is no longer understood, how very very sad.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What kind of "regulation" do you want to preserve your privileges? Just keep everybody out who is willing and able to do your job better for less? I have no problem with multiculturalism nor immigration provided it is regulated to some extent in order to preserve our middle class rather than force a bunch of old people to compete with a much younger world.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
So much for centuries of hard-won principles of civilization and government.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
I've been talking about continuing those hard-won principles and improving on them.
So much for centuries of hard-won principles of civilization and government."Give me your tired, your poor, You're the one who is trying to slam the golden door.Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Ooen Borders and Multiculturalism cannot do that.
And I want LEGAL immigration, CONTROLLED immigration, which is NOT slamming any doors. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
It was open borders and multiculturalism that brought my grandparents here a century ago. It was people like you who tried to keep them out because they didn't speak English.
Ooen Borders and Multiculturalism cannot do that. Faith writes:
I don't know or care whether my grandparents entered the country legally. They contributed their share while they were here. That's all that matters.
And I want LEGAL immigration... Faith writes:
You want to keep out the multiple cultures. That certainly is slamming doors. CONTROLLED immigration, which is NOT slamming any doors.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I do NOT want to "keep out the multiple cultures," in fact what you get with Open Borders is not multiple cultures but mostly just one culture. The problem with Multiculturalism is that assimilation is not emphasized and we get these groups of people that don't become part of the main culture, don't learn or accept its principles. Cultures have ideologies and in many cases some pretty primitive governing principles that don't mesh with the principles that built western civilization. If they are willing to learn and assimilate, that's the melting pot, but as long as they insist on maintaining their completely different principles they do not become Americans, or Canadians or whatever, may not even want to learn English. I'm sure this doesn't describe your grandparents, who apparently immigrated to Canada before there was any real need for immigration controls anyway. As did my Canadian grandparents too though mine did speak English. America has had many immigrant ethnic groups who didn't speak English, but who didn't refuse to learn it either and whose descendants joined the melting pot. This is what immigration laws should encourage. Open Borders and Multiculturalism do not encourage it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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If they are willing to learn and assimilate, that's the melting pot, but as long as they insist on maintaining their completely different principles they do not become Americans, or Canadians or whatever, may not even want to learn English. I call BS on this idea. By an large, when people come here with the intent of becoming citizens, if they are young enough and able, they do learn English. Older folks may not do that. What they don't do is drop their religion and other things about their culture. Nor is there any reason that they should. There is also nothing wrong with them wanting to get together with others folks like them. That is certainly what lots of white people do. And let's recall that your own exclusion list includes people who are leftists. As if being conservative or liberal was somehow part of the mandatory Amerian culture. You've basically given your entire game away. The layer of paint you put on top of your xenophobia and bigotry is exceedingly thin. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
That's the benefit of multiculturalism, not a "problem". Diversity is a strength, not a weakness. It's funny how even the most foaming-at-the-mouth xenophobes understand that inbreeding in animals is a bad thing but they don't understand that an inbred culture has the same kind of weakness. The problem with Multiculturalism is that assimilation is not emphasized and we get these groups of people that don't become part of the main culture, don't learn or accept its principles. The principles are not perfect and carved in stone for all time. They have to be improved as new circumstances arise. The influx of different cultures is an excellent way to test the strength of our principles. Unfortunately, people like you fail to understand the very principles that they so viciously pretend to uphold.
Faith writes:
As I said, people like you did try to keep my grandparents out, so clearly they did think controls were necessary. I'm sure this doesn't describe your grandparents, who apparently immigrated to Canada before there was any real need for immigration controls anyway.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Being a union man, I respect the idea of seniority. Those who were here first should get taken care of (social security,etc) by those coming later. It would be as if you opened your own house to everyone. You still should have the right to your own bedroom and food...as a gesture of respect from the many, you let stay with you. If those of us who built this country...along with our parents...are taken care of, let them all in. If we are forced to compete for space we grew up in, thats another issue entirely. I don't know or care whether my grandparents entered the country legally. They contributed their share while they were here. That's all that matters.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Seniority is fine. It should count for something, even if only as a sign of loyalty, experience, stabilty, etc. But it shouldn't be seen as an entitlement. If your loyalty, experience, stability, etc. make you competitive overall, then it's an asset to your employer. If not, it's only of value to you. Being a union man, I respect the idea of seniority.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Perhaps another analogy can clarify my position. Take veterans. Old soldiers. They paid their dues when they were younger. Nobody expects an old soldier to be able to compete with a young soldier, nor does anyone expect a young soldier to get the benefits that an old soldier has earned.
Seniority is for senior people. Agewise and experiencewise, seniority is the fairest system there is. Cultures have long taken care of their elders. This is my prerequisite for immigration---that the domestic aging population is taken care of first.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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