Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
9 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1291 of 1484 (838346)
08-19-2018 5:05 PM


Fundi "Christians" use VEGETARIAN verse ( Is. 66:3) to justify killing & eating pigs
Somehow this (and see chapter 65 and all of 66) is used to justify throwing away the rule against eating pork. (see Faith's post for that source and quote)
quote:
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
ISAIAH CHAPTER 66 KJV
The Lion and Lamb not eating flesh is in chapter 65.
There was a general attack on certain Israelite practices (how common, I have no idea, but pork bones are almost non existent in Israelite and Canaanite sites during the period of Isaiah).
This is proof that ANYTHING can be twisted into saying the exact opposite.
(There was a school of Pre Christian Nazarenes that did not eat meat and felt that Moses never legislated flesh sacrifices, like Jeremiah 7:22 seems to be saying)

Replies to this message:
 Message 1294 by Faith, posted 08-19-2018 5:15 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1292 of 1484 (838347)
08-19-2018 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1290 by Faith
08-19-2018 5:05 PM


Is it a firsthand source or (at best) a second hand comic book "source"?
quote:
You could have said all that in a few short sentences. And I refuse to consider that my sources are liars. I'm sorry I answered you at all.
You have no primary source.
Just lies.
Anybody can quote lies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1290 by Faith, posted 08-19-2018 5:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1293 of 1484 (838348)
08-19-2018 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1289 by Phat
08-19-2018 4:56 PM


Jews say food prohibitions IN sacrifices OUT. 2 different issues. (despite the lies)
quote:
But you provide no reason why these ancient practices are in any way relevant for us today.
I don't know if there was a Moses type who ever legislated sacrifice.
Jeremiah seemed to question such a thing.
See Jeremiah 7:22.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1289 by Phat, posted 08-19-2018 4:56 PM Phat has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1295 of 1484 (838350)
08-19-2018 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1294 by Faith
08-19-2018 5:15 PM


Re: Fundi "Christians" use VEGETARIAN verse ( Is. 66:3) to justify killing & eating pigs
So where is your primary source saying Canaanites sacrificed pigs?
Just a bunch of claims. By people who lie.
Where are pigs mentioned in Ugaritic Offering lists?
There is NOTHING even in the Bible to come close to backing up this claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1294 by Faith, posted 08-19-2018 5:15 PM Faith has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1296 of 1484 (838353)
08-19-2018 6:22 PM


For the record: Canaanites sacrificial system was largely adopted by Israelites.
It is a bold faced lie to attempt to describe ANYTHING (relative to the animals being sacrificed) as being anything - in any way - to radically distance Israelites from Canaanites. Same with food.
This Fundi source below says the Israelites had sacrifice before the Canaanites, and goes to great lengths to describe the differences between the two.
Ugarit - Encyclopedia of The Bible - Bible Gateway
Notice no mention of pigs!
(No evidence INFACT there is only evidence that Canaanites did NOT sacrifice pigs)
quote:
The Ugaritic texts give us firsthand information on the Baal cult, and the ideas and ideals of the people of Canaan at the time of the Biblical patriarchs.
Sacrifices mentioned in the Ugaritic texts bear names similar to those of the Biblical sacrificial system. The Ugaritic texts speak of burnt offerings, whole burnt offerings, trespass offerings, wave offerings, peace offerings, firstfruits offerings, new moon offerings and others. As in the Biblical sacrifices, it was necessary that animals offered be without blemish.
Although names are similar, the religious meaning was quite different. Offerings were made to Baal and a host of other gods at Ugarit, while the Israelite religion prescribed the worship of Yahweh alone. While Biblical offerings were regularized in the Mosaic law, particularly the Book of Leviticus, Biblical sacrifices go back to the earliest times.
Faith wants my posts reduced to a few sentences so she can repeat lies. So much for her claims that she and Fundi Christians are against sins.

Replies to this message:
 Message 1297 by NoNukes, posted 08-19-2018 9:36 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1298 of 1484 (838356)
08-19-2018 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1297 by NoNukes
08-19-2018 9:36 PM


Re: For the record: Canaanites sacrificial system was largely adopted by Israelites.
At least I have quality sources and reference to the actual texts that matter.
Faith has nothing but dishonest assertions. (Really, I know of nothing in the Jewish rabbinical commentary that backs up this fundi claim that she and the trillions of fundis regurgitate)
Roland de Vaux was a great conservative Christian scholar, and I showed he very clearly dismissed the idea of Isaiah 66:3 as representing Canaanite practice.
I can't even have an honest discussion with Faith. She makes claims, and can't back them up. The only slight truth to her claim is that Israeli and Canaanite peoples were so closely related, that ANY ISRAELITE that ate pork can be said to have been PERFORMING a "heathen" practice (geographically, I suppose this could perhaps be broadly called "Canaanite" - to simply describe an apostate Israelite - though Canaanites themselves did not eat pork.)
I have looked at the archaeological record of pre-Israelite cult places and they are lacking pig bones.
Look at the book search for:
Ethno Genesis by Avraham Faust pig bones Canaanites
Now, he was attempting to make the case for less pig bones in Israelite sites, but he admitted that 2 important Canaanite cult sites lacked pig bones (in the latest Canaanite periods):
Tell ed-Duweir
Shiloh
The chapter can be read on google books.
I can find more examples perhaps. I am trying to get more information. Shiloh seems to be a cult site (for certain) and it lacked pig bones after the 18th century BCE, but the bones were 3.5% pigs before then. If I understand the archaeological terminology correctly (I admit I had to look it up to figure the terms year date meanings).
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1297 by NoNukes, posted 08-19-2018 9:36 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1299 by NoNukes, posted 08-19-2018 10:09 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 1300 by Faith, posted 08-20-2018 12:27 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1301 of 1484 (838359)
08-20-2018 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1299 by NoNukes
08-19-2018 10:09 PM


So how would you get Faith to back up her claims?
(She has nothing in the Bible to back her claims, no Canaanite texts, no classical Phoenician texts SO HOW ABOUT ARCHAEOLOGY?)
I was just looking at the important cultic site of Shiloh and was attempting to look at pig bones.
This five day old article sees this as almost something of another Temple Mount in terms of importance, the difference is it can be (and is) excavated.
Assemblies of God (USA) Official Web Site | CHLS Joins ABR in Historic Dig in Shiloh
I found it because there is one (and only one) source that claims that 6% of pre-Israelite animal bones found in Shiloh were pig bones, while all other sources place it at 0% to 0.17%.
Page 217, Beyond the Texts: An Archaeological Portrait of Ancient Israel and Judah
By William G. Dever, has a chart that places Pre Israelite Shiloh pig bones at 6% (then a chart showing the Israelite Shiloh suddenly turned to 0% pig bones) , but this 5 day old article says they were no higher than 4%.
Everyone else has Shiloh at about 0% for like 500 years before this sacrificial center transitioned from Canaanite to Israelite.
Here:
quote:
Israel's Ethnogenesis: Settlement, Interaction, Expansion and Resistance
By Avraham Faust
p.35
the intermediate Bronze Age, pigs constituted some 15.2% of the faunal assemblage of 'Emeq Refaim in the highlands (Horwitz 1989: 46). During the Middle Bronze Age they formed 6.3% of the assemblage at coastal Tel Michal (Hellwing and Feig 1989: 246), 6.2-9.0% at Tel Aphek in the Sharon Plain (Hellwing 2000: 294, table 15.4),8% at 'Emeq Refaim in the highlands (Horwitz 1989: 46), 3.1% and 0.1% at Lachish in the Shephelah (excavation seasons I-VI and XI, respectively; Hellwing et al. 1993: 346, Table 15.44),31 %--45% at Tell el-Hayyat in the northern valleys (Falconer 1995), and 3.5% at Middle Bronze 11 Shiloh in the highlands (Hellwing et al. 1993: 311,313,314; no such bones were found in the Middle Bronze III level there). Pigs were seemingly found in the Late Bronze Age strata ofTel Dan in the northern valleys (Ilan 1999: 55), and were abundant at rei Miqne\Ekron in the Shephelah (8%; Hesse 1986: 23). They were rare, however, in contemporaneous levels at Shiloh (0.17%; Hellwing et al. 1993: 311), Tel Michal (0.3%; Hellwing and Feig 1989: 246) and Tel Lachish (0.2%; Hellwing et al. 1993: 347, Table 15.47).
And Here:
quote:
JBL122/3 (2003) 401-425
ISRAELITE ETHNICITY IN IRON I:
ARCHAEOLOGY PRESERVES
WHAT IS REMEMBERED AND
WHAT IS FORGOTTEN
IN ISRAELS HISTORY
....
p.409
Zooarchaeologists seemingly rescued the early Israelites from obscurity.
The apparent abstinence from pork in fulfillment of the biblical injunction (Lev
11:7-8; Deut 14:8) was embraced as the elusive marker of Israelite ethnicity.28
Brian Hesse and Paula Wapnish tabulated percentages of pig bones among faunal
collections from Israel, Syria, Iraq, eastern Anatolia, and Egypt, spanning
the ninth to the first millennium.29
Relevant to this discussion are their findings
from second- and first-millennium Cisjordan. Their efforts are hamstrung by
the small number of faunal assemblages analyzed, samples of widely varying
size (from 47 to 3,950 bones), and the variability of intrasite distribution
depending on context. Isolating the results of southern Levantine sites, five
Middle Bronze Age sites demonstrated "intense exploitation" of pig, from 8 to
34 percent of identified animal bones in domestic debris. Late Bronze Age sites
yielded "scant" Late Bronze Age evidence, with the sole highland site of Shiloh
yielding a mere 0.17 percent (one bone). Pig was rare but present in Iron I
highland sites: 0.7 percent at Shiloh, one bone each at Ai and Khirbet Raddana,
and "some" from the City of David (none from the Ophel).
http://blogs.bu.edu/...les/2011/09/Bloch-Smith-ethnicity.pdf
Faith might not care, and perhaps you don't either.
But a claim was made and it would be nice if she was forced to confront the total lack of evidence.
(She won't)
EDIT SHE DID! I need to see what she has.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1299 by NoNukes, posted 08-19-2018 10:09 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1302 of 1484 (838360)
08-20-2018 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1300 by Faith
08-20-2018 12:27 AM


Canaanites sacrificial system was largely adopted by Israelites.
I see that Hitites would not sacrifice pigs or dogs.
Egyptians would not.
Canaanite Shiloh didn't seem to from the Middle Bronze Age III on (whatever date that is, I assume it is Canaanite)
During the entire Iron Age, Canaanite Dor had no pig bones.
It depends on the site though.
I will look at this more closely in the coming days.
Thanks for taking a shot at the evidence Faith.
(Shiloh in the Canaanite period is described as having pig bones at a 6% rate "Late Bronze Age" by the William Dever 2018 book, but that is contradicted by everything else that places it at 0.17%)
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1300 by Faith, posted 08-20-2018 12:27 AM Faith has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1303 of 1484 (838361)
08-20-2018 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1300 by Faith
08-20-2018 12:27 AM


Re: For the record: Canaanites sacrificial system was largely adopted by Israelites.
quote:
I quote that because it contradicts what you said about Canaanites not eating pork. But such archaeological evidence is open to error since they usually haven't excavated a whole site, which is mentioned in the article as a problem, and the presence of bones has to be subject to wrong interpretations anyway, so I don't want to make anything of it beyond that. And I really don't care about any of this stuff, it's way too iffy.
There is a difference between foods that are o.k. to eat and then the much more limited foods fit for sacrifice. Thousands of bones have been found at the Israelite cult site of Mt Ebal.
300,000 to be exact.
The Israelite period have animals not fit for sacrifice (but fit for eating) like roe deer.
See:
History, Archaeology and The Bible Forty Years After "Historicity": Changing ...
edited by Ingrid Hjelm, Thomas L. Thompson
pp. 120-21
quote:
MT. Ebal, which Zertal claimed was Joshua's altar, lying just north of Mt. Gerizim, yielded the most varied and highest percentage of non-prescribed animal bones of deer, polecat, tortise, lizard, and mole rat. ...it seems that biblical tradition and the lack of pig bones at the site has determined its classification
This was describing the early Israelite period.
But it is consistent with sacrifice of killing any firstborn animal that opens the matrix in Exodus, I suppose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1300 by Faith, posted 08-20-2018 12:27 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1304 by Faith, posted 08-20-2018 2:07 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024