Christianity and the End Times

They may assign one to you that looks like Long John Silver! That would be interesting to watch!

Revelation 6 is where things really start to get rolling. This is the chapter with the famous Four Horsemen, a conqueror, War, Famine and Death. With war everywhere there’s likely to be famine and that adds up to a lot of death.The martyrs call for God to avenge them (a bit odd if their persecutors have been dead for centuries, but there’s no hint of that in the text)Then we have an earthquake, the sun turning black, the moon red, the stars falling and the sky being rolled up like a scroll. Which is what happens at the end of the Tribulation (see Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24-25) although more detailed here.Revelation 7 starts with the 144,000 of Israel being sealed to God, with instructions to angels not to do,any more damage to the world before that is done.Then we have the multitude who came out of the great tribulation dressed in white (like the martyrs of the previous chapter). Possibly they are meant to be Christians martyred in the Tribulation, perhaps just those who clung to their Faith through the entire thing.

The trouble is that isn't what scripture intends. It is like reading a book that says it was raining cats and dogs and understanding that our pets had been swept up by a tornado and were falling out of the sky.You are reading ancient texts with a 21st century mind set without considering the target audience and the idioms and the culture of that target audience. You pull information out of the texts that was never intended based upon your pre-conceived doctrine, and then you either rationalize or ignore the Scriptures which don't agree with your basic assumptions.The end result is that you have wound up with a doctrine which is very different from the message of Jesus, who embodied the Word of God.

Faith, This was a typo. I meant to write this -

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But I think my point was that the phrase "on the day when the Son of Man is revealed" should [NOT] be some rationale to insist that there could only be one rapture or that there is no rapture.

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The fact that some are TAKEN is plainly interpreted in that the disciples ASK - WHERE ? This Where probably means that they are rewarded to accompany Christ to the battle of Armageddon, where Antichrist as a stinking corpse of death is defeated by Christ and His heavenly army in Rev. 19:11-16; Rev. 17:14.As birds of prey, the overcoming saints who were rewarded with early rapture will also be rewarded to accompany Christ in His descent to crush the Satanic forces led by the Antichrist and his False Prophet at Armageddon.This also proves that early secretive rapture is a matter of both vigilant love for the Lord Jesus and exercise of authority to co-conquer His enemies.
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Where are they taken ?In Matthew 24:31 we are told that angels will gather the elect, but not where they will go. In Matthew 25:31 we are told that the Final Judgement follows, so presumably they will be gathered with the sheep on Jesus’ right.But again, this follows the Tribulation and occurs with the Second Coming so it cannot be an early Rapture.

I'm not sure why you are correcting that for me since I don't think I addressed that post.I'm taking your views into account but they are different enough from the usual evangelical way of understanding these things that all I can do is just note them for now.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Looks pretty straightforward to me. There are other passages that imply the rapture but this one directly describes it.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Um, but why this sense of imminence right now? I only very recently came to believe in the pre-trib Rapture and it is still more or less new to me. Oh I've read and heard arguments for it but never really dug into it because it never seemed compelling enough, or biblically consistent enough, to spend the time on it, just figured I'd wait and see. On the other hand I've believed we are in the final end days for some time now, but the pre-trib Rapture had never completely convinced me until very recently. I'm not sure that explains this sense of imminence either. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

There's your reason Like I say. The end times are always nigh. They have to be for anybody to be interested. That's why the end times were supposed to be within the lifetimes of the generation listening to Jesus. It's ok Faith, you can relax Jesus didn't say:For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here whose great, great, great, great, great (etc) grandchildren will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

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Where are they taken ?

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It depends upon which rapture one refers to.The select group taken which comprise the Firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) (living overcomers) and which comprise the Manchild (Rev. 12:5) (deceased overcomers) are first TAKEN to the third heavens.But you were already skeptical about the Firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) being in heaven. So I expect that you still are.The Manchild (Rev. 12:5) is the deceased version of the same kind of saints. And it says they were caught up to the throne of God in heaven. The living watching, ready saints are raptured to the third heavens.
And the deceased who lived watching and ready are resurrected and rapture up to God and to His throne.The Firtfruits are obviously a collective (144,000)
And the Manchild is also obviously a collective for he is described as "brothers," "their," "them," and "they" (12:10,11) It could not be talking about the angels because they do not overcome because redemptive blood of Christ. But human beings do overcome Satanic accusation because of the redeeming blood of Christ.And a collective of human beings who are overcomers are also destined to shepherd the nations WITH Jesus Christ. Christ's Father grants His Son to take the lead to shepherd the nations with strong reigning power in His Second Coming as seen in Rev. 19:14,15. Both groups enjoy a pre-tribulation rapture to the third heavens. Both groups will join Christ as His armies and co-reign with Him to shepherd the nations during the millennial kingdom.Now this was pre-tribulation rapture. The short time of a thousand two hundred and sixty days occurs immediately after the rapture of the collective Manchild. The arrival of the Firstfruits and the Manchild in heaven is the cause of Satan to be driven down in great anger to commence the time of the great tribulation. This logic gives me the ground to say that the living overcomers vigilanly found walking in the Spirit and watching for Christ are TAKEN to accompany Christ as He comes DOWN from the third heavens to the final battle at Armageddon at the end of the thousand two hundred and sixty days "great tribulation". Now for the rapture at the end of the great tribulation, Christ has made His descent from the third heavens to the air surrounding the earth. So that majority group (both the living and the deceased) will be raptured "in the air" This is about the rapture at the conclusion of that great tribulation. It corresponds to the reaping of the Harvest in Revelation 14:14-16) Pre-tibulation rapture - Taken to the third heavens.
End-tribulation rapture - Taken to the air, the upper atmosphere near the earth.

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In Matthew 24:31 we are told that angels will gather the elect, but not where they will go. In Matthew 25:31 we are told that the Final Judgement follows, so presumably they will be gathered with the sheep on Jesus’ right.

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But again, this follows the Tribulation and occurs with the Second Coming so it cannot be an early Rapture.

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Matthew 24:31 is not about the rapture of the saints. This verse is about God keeping His promise through the Messiah to gather His Israelite people scattered among the nations.You may remember that I said there was a dividing line of Matthew 24:1-31 and Matthew 24:32 - 25:46. I said that up to verse 31 the answer of Jesus is addressing the disciples as to their status as Jews of the nation of Israel.These words in verse 31 - - pertain to Christ, after the great tribulation, gathering together to the Holy Land the scattered Jews from all parts of the earth. This promise fulfills His word in 23:37 Matthew 24:31 is Christ keeping the Old Testament prophecy of God to gather the scattered Jews back to the Holy Land - see Deut. 30:3-5; Isa. 43:5-7;49:9-11,22-26; 51:11; 56:8; 60:4; 62:1-12; 27:13; Ezek. 34:13,37:21; 28:25 And for spaces's sake I may say something about the sheep and goats of the judgment of Matthew 25:32-46 in another post. This is a judgment of the nations remaining alive at the beginning of the millennial kingdom. This is not the last judgment which is after the millennial kingdom and revealed in Revelation 20:11-15 Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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It depends upon which rapture one refers to.

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Not only are you answering a rhetorical question, it also clearly refers to those who are taken in Matthew 24:40-41, which occurs at the time of the Second Coming.

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The select group taken which comprise the Firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) (living overcomers) and which comprise the Manchild (Rev. 12:5) (deceased overcomers) are first TAKEN to the third heavens.

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The Manchild is more usually taken to be Jesus. Note that it is said that he will rule the nations with a rod of iron as is the figure in Revelation 19:11-16 - who you identify as Jesus.

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And the Manchild is also obviously a collective for he is described as "brothers," "their," "them," and "they" (12:10,11)

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It is far from obvious that those verses refer to the manchild.

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Both groups enjoy a pre-tribulation rapture to the third heavens.

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You say that but you have yet to produce any clear reference to a pre-tribulation Rapture. It’s always inferred from dubious interpretations.

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You may remember that I said there was a dividing line of Matthew 24:1-31 and Matthew 24:32 - 25:46. I said that up to verse 31 the answer of Jesus is addressing the disciples as to their status as Jews of the nation of Israel.

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You’ve said it, but you have yet to produce any reason to think it true. If Matthew 24:31 is to be taken as referring only to Jews you are going to need some actual support from the text, not an assumed division which hardly supports the idea anyway.As yet there seems no reason to reject the obvious reading that those taken at the Second Coming in Matthew 24:41-42 are those gathered in 24:31 - which also occurs with the Second Coming.

The only way that I could see believers actually wanting a rapture is if they were miserable, unhappy, or more likely actually persecuted(as the Jews were in WW II) here and now. If I am honest, and if I allow myself to believe in the dogma known as "The Rapture" I would have to assume that my character and behavior now would be worthy of being taken to another better place by a benevolent God. If He were to snatch me up simply because at one time in my life I asked Jesus into my heart, this would mean He would also snatch YOU up, Tangle...because I am assuming that you at one time early in your life did just that...even though you are now an unbeliever.If, on the other hand, God only chose people who were trying their best to be in communion with God and logically also doing the best that they could for others, this would comprise a distinct minority of people the world over.2nd Thessalonians, the scripture most commonly used to support a Rapture, talks about those who have no love for the truth (which must mean a living Christ) and thus believe "the lie".....but if we were honest, we could even claim that all of the end timers talk itself is the lie...you would likely say that we believers waste far too much time on such stuff and should simply go fishing...(however, helping others is always kosher!)If I wanted a Rapture as much as Faith does, it would be because I was tired of my life and simply wanted a relief from the stress of it all.Quite honestly, I'm not ready too go to a place where there are streets of gold, many mansions, scores of angels and saints and everyone singing hallelujah 24/7...it all seems contrived and not within my current character...so I doubt I will make the first bus.

But there is nothing in 2 Thessalonians to support truth being some living Jesus Christ. That is simply cult dogma.The whole context of 2 Thessalonians is on doing and work, not belief or simple exhortation.

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1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

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2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

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3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

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4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

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5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

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6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

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7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

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8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

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9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

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10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

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11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

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12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

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2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

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2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

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3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

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4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

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5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

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6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

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7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

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8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

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9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

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10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

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11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

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12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

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14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

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16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

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17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

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3 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

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2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

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3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

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4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.

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5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

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6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

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7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

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8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

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9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

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10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

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11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

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12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

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13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.

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14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

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15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

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16 Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.

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17 The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.

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18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

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2 Thess is pretty short so it makes little sense to try to pull proof texts out of context UNLESS the intent is to support some predetermined dogma rather than what 2 Thess actually says.Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

OK...take this "pieces parts"...

They perish because they did not receive the love of the truth. What is the truth referred to?

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What delusion does God send?

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looks like 12 speaks of belief rather than works.

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Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

If you read ALL of 2 Thessalonians Truth refers to good behavior, to what Jesus taught, to work and proper behavior.The delusion sent is thinking that you don't have to behave and work.But you only get the idea that 12 refers to belief when you take it out of context.You tend to stop reading and thinking when you get to the answer you want, but there are three chapters to 2 Thessalonians and the answers to your questions are included in what is actually written in chapter 2 & 3.