Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 217 of 353 (838745)
08-26-2018 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by ringo
08-26-2018 4:33 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Ah yes now it's only personal attack, no substance. I think we've had this discussion, socialism is theft and that's what's wrong with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by ringo, posted 08-26-2018 4:33 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by ringo, posted 08-26-2018 4:52 PM Faith has replied
 Message 220 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2018 5:26 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 221 of 353 (838749)
08-26-2018 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Tangle
08-26-2018 5:26 PM


Re: Robber Barons
The tithe is voluntary, you are not put in jail if you fail to give it. And in reality a lot more than the tithe is normally given by those who can afford it. Besides which, in many churches there is a separate fund collected to help impoverished church members. As well as separate funds to support various ministries such as the sevices given to women with unwanted pregnancies, and local food banks and so on.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2018 5:26 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-26-2018 6:21 PM Faith has replied
 Message 226 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2018 2:49 AM Faith has replied
 Message 227 by frako, posted 08-27-2018 4:20 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 222 of 353 (838750)
08-26-2018 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by ringo
08-26-2018 4:52 PM


Re: Robber Barons
You've done nothing to back up your claim that taxation is theft.
Weird. I have to prove that there's a difference between giving voluntarily to help out your impoverished neighbor and having to pay a tax to help him out that if you fail to pay it will put you in jail?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by ringo, posted 08-26-2018 4:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by jar, posted 08-26-2018 6:36 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 231 by ringo, posted 08-27-2018 11:50 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 225 of 353 (838753)
08-27-2018 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Capt Stormfield
08-26-2018 6:21 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Norway, Canada and the US are examples of capitalistic economies that support some socialistic programs. I don't know about France or Russia. It seems successful enough in a way but there are hidden problems according to Shapiro.
And it is theft in any case. Again, theft in that money is taken from some individuals for the personal support of others. Taxes should be more like a fee we pay for the services rendered by government, such as public works, paying our public servants and so on. It's an entirely different thing to pay money for the support of other citizens who do nothing to earn it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-26-2018 6:21 PM Capt Stormfield has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 228 of 353 (838759)
08-27-2018 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by frako
08-27-2018 4:20 AM


Re: Robber Barons
Perhaps nowdays but in the good old days of the curch before this fad of non violance came arround, you had to pay taxes to the curch. and taxes to your lord. a tenth of everything you had, not just your profits had to go to the curch every year or you would go to debters prison or worse.
But what authority mandated this? God didn't, meaning the Bible doesn't that I know of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by frako, posted 08-27-2018 4:20 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by frako, posted 08-28-2018 3:04 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 229 of 353 (838760)
08-27-2018 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Tangle
08-27-2018 2:49 AM


Re: Robber Barons
As I just said to frako, I'm not aware of the Bible's making the tithe mandatory. Can you give a specific reference for that?
ABE: Found a reference that those who didn't tithe were put under a curse, which certainly sounds pretty mandatory, but I didn't look it up.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2018 2:49 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by ringo, posted 08-27-2018 12:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 233 of 353 (838767)
08-27-2018 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by ringo
08-27-2018 11:50 AM


Re: Robber Barons
Just as a matter of fact voluntary giving ends up giving a lot more than a tenth. Also in ancient Israel that was the case, whether the tithe was mandatory or not, and I gather it was. For the Church it is not mandatory, it is replaced by voluntary giving from the heart.
The tithe in Israel did not go to the support of poor people though, there were other means for taking care of them. The tithe did support the Levites, who were the priests, but they were an essential part of the functioning of the theocracy so that was more like using taxes to support public servants, which I keep saying is a legitimate government function.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by ringo, posted 08-27-2018 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by JonF, posted 08-27-2018 12:50 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 08-27-2018 1:14 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 236 of 353 (838770)
08-27-2018 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by ringo
08-27-2018 1:14 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Thank you, that's good information.
It is not to be applied to a nontheocracy, a secular state, however, where people are not in covenant with God and each other, so taxing to give to others is stealing. The appropriate principle is giving from the heart, not taxation, and to that end the government should get its hands out of it.
About the fact that Christians aren't obligated to tithe, thatis in scripture, that's not something we made up: our rule is the rule of giving from the heart. And it is a fact that just as Israel did, Christians give a lot more than a tenth.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 08-27-2018 1:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by ringo, posted 08-27-2018 3:40 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 238 of 353 (838772)
08-27-2018 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by caffeine
08-27-2018 3:15 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Lots of good information here. You may change my mind about the welfare state.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by caffeine, posted 08-27-2018 3:15 PM caffeine has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 241 of 353 (838808)
08-28-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by frako
08-28-2018 3:04 PM


Re: Robber Barons
The Romans didn't invent Christianity, the first "universal bishop" or antichrist Pope that started their domination of the Church, came in 606 AD.
Anyway, I didn't say anything about refusing to pay taxes, I said we should pay taxes no matter what they are for -- except for mentioning that an argument could be made for refusing, which I'm not making.
What I said was NOT mandatory for Christians is the tithe to the Church itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by frako, posted 08-28-2018 3:04 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by frako, posted 08-29-2018 3:19 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 242 of 353 (838822)
08-28-2018 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by frako
08-28-2018 3:04 PM


Re: Robber Barons
I reread the post and just have to emphasize again, I've not said anything about taxes not being mandatory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by frako, posted 08-28-2018 3:04 PM frako has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 244 of 353 (838841)
08-29-2018 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by frako
08-29-2018 3:19 AM


Re: Robber Barons
A tithe is a 10 % tax on everything, its in the bible since abraham, and it is mandatory, if you read the bible that is, if you just make shit up sure its not.
Abraham spontaneously gave a tithe to Melchizedek, but it was not made a commandment until Moses. However, when Jesus came He fulfilled all the Law of Moses so Christians are not under the obligation to tithe. We are nevertheless admonished to give generously and cheerfully. All the New Testament scriptures you quote do not refer to the tithe but to the taxes to be paid to the Roman Empire.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by frako, posted 08-29-2018 3:19 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2018 11:30 AM Faith has replied
 Message 247 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 11:49 AM Faith has replied
 Message 263 by frako, posted 08-29-2018 1:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 246 of 353 (838844)
08-29-2018 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Tangle
08-29-2018 11:30 AM


Re: Robber Barons
So it was theft under Moses then?
It was interesting to learn that the tithe included money to help strangers and widows and orphans since I thought there were other provisions made for them, but I still can't regard that as the same thing as socialism. For one thing it supports only those who are truly without any other means of support. It doesn't include able-bodied Jewish men, who would have become slaves to pay off their debts. But I do admit it's made me rethink the general topic here since I don't regard this as theft.
Also caffeine's post about how the Roman Empire did give food to support the poor was another interesting fact I hadn't known.
I did find myself wondering why such a gift to widows and orphans and strangers isn't mentioned for Ruth and Naomi, both of whom were widows and Ruth also a stranger. Ruth gleaned in the fields of Boaz for grain to feed the two of them but nothing is said about a tithe offering for their support. But that's an academic side point at best.
Everything I've read, and yes I know evidence is wanted here and maybe I'll dig some up, but everything I've read and heard about the tithe is that the Israelites gave much more than a tenth, just as the Christians do.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2018 11:30 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2018 12:38 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 248 of 353 (838846)
08-29-2018 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by ringo
08-29-2018 11:49 AM


Re: Robber Barons
But you are making these things rigid when they are not. God's never changing doesn't mean He doesn't deal with different situations differently, it just means that He can always be counted on to act in accordance with His unchanging principles of righteousness. He's consistent in other words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 11:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 12:02 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 250 of 353 (838851)
08-29-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by ringo
08-29-2018 12:02 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Jesus was teaching a specific young man when he told him to give away everything he owned, that was NOT a principle for everybody. And sorry I guess I missed whatever you said about Elijah.
And besides it makes no sense to equate this teaching with the Communist dictum.
ABE: Perhaps the incident with Ananias and Sapphira will answer your idea that giving away everything was supposed to be a basic principle. When God struck them dead it was for lying about what they were giving, not for the amount they had chosen to give. I think it was Peter who said -- one of the apostles anyway -- it was in their power to give whatever portion they wanted, but claiming they were giving all when they weren't was lying to God and that's why they died. Emphasis: IN THEIR POWER TO GIVE WHATEVER THEY WANTED. Meaning they had a right to the disposition of their property and no obligation to give all of it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 12:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 12:17 PM Faith has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024