|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total) |
| |
popoi | |
Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Ah yes now it's only personal attack, no substance. I think we've had this discussion, socialism is theft and that's what's wrong with it.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The tithe is voluntary, you are not put in jail if you fail to give it. And in reality a lot more than the tithe is normally given by those who can afford it. Besides which, in many churches there is a separate fund collected to help impoverished church members. As well as separate funds to support various ministries such as the sevices given to women with unwanted pregnancies, and local food banks and so on.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You've done nothing to back up your claim that taxation is theft. Weird. I have to prove that there's a difference between giving voluntarily to help out your impoverished neighbor and having to pay a tax to help him out that if you fail to pay it will put you in jail?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Norway, Canada and the US are examples of capitalistic economies that support some socialistic programs. I don't know about France or Russia. It seems successful enough in a way but there are hidden problems according to Shapiro.
And it is theft in any case. Again, theft in that money is taken from some individuals for the personal support of others. Taxes should be more like a fee we pay for the services rendered by government, such as public works, paying our public servants and so on. It's an entirely different thing to pay money for the support of other citizens who do nothing to earn it. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Perhaps nowdays but in the good old days of the curch before this fad of non violance came arround, you had to pay taxes to the curch. and taxes to your lord. a tenth of everything you had, not just your profits had to go to the curch every year or you would go to debters prison or worse. But what authority mandated this? God didn't, meaning the Bible doesn't that I know of.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
As I just said to frako, I'm not aware of the Bible's making the tithe mandatory. Can you give a specific reference for that?
ABE: Found a reference that those who didn't tithe were put under a curse, which certainly sounds pretty mandatory, but I didn't look it up. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Just as a matter of fact voluntary giving ends up giving a lot more than a tenth. Also in ancient Israel that was the case, whether the tithe was mandatory or not, and I gather it was. For the Church it is not mandatory, it is replaced by voluntary giving from the heart.
The tithe in Israel did not go to the support of poor people though, there were other means for taking care of them. The tithe did support the Levites, who were the priests, but they were an essential part of the functioning of the theocracy so that was more like using taxes to support public servants, which I keep saying is a legitimate government function.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
|
Thank you, that's good information.
It is not to be applied to a nontheocracy, a secular state, however, where people are not in covenant with God and each other, so taxing to give to others is stealing. The appropriate principle is giving from the heart, not taxation, and to that end the government should get its hands out of it. About the fact that Christians aren't obligated to tithe, thatis in scripture, that's not something we made up: our rule is the rule of giving from the heart. And it is a fact that just as Israel did, Christians give a lot more than a tenth. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
|
Lots of good information here. You may change my mind about the welfare state.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The Romans didn't invent Christianity, the first "universal bishop" or antichrist Pope that started their domination of the Church, came in 606 AD.
Anyway, I didn't say anything about refusing to pay taxes, I said we should pay taxes no matter what they are for -- except for mentioning that an argument could be made for refusing, which I'm not making. What I said was NOT mandatory for Christians is the tithe to the Church itself.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I reread the post and just have to emphasize again, I've not said anything about taxes not being mandatory.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
A tithe is a 10 % tax on everything, its in the bible since abraham, and it is mandatory, if you read the bible that is, if you just make shit up sure its not. Abraham spontaneously gave a tithe to Melchizedek, but it was not made a commandment until Moses. However, when Jesus came He fulfilled all the Law of Moses so Christians are not under the obligation to tithe. We are nevertheless admonished to give generously and cheerfully. All the New Testament scriptures you quote do not refer to the tithe but to the taxes to be paid to the Roman Empire. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
So it was theft under Moses then? It was interesting to learn that the tithe included money to help strangers and widows and orphans since I thought there were other provisions made for them, but I still can't regard that as the same thing as socialism. For one thing it supports only those who are truly without any other means of support. It doesn't include able-bodied Jewish men, who would have become slaves to pay off their debts. But I do admit it's made me rethink the general topic here since I don't regard this as theft. Also caffeine's post about how the Roman Empire did give food to support the poor was another interesting fact I hadn't known. I did find myself wondering why such a gift to widows and orphans and strangers isn't mentioned for Ruth and Naomi, both of whom were widows and Ruth also a stranger. Ruth gleaned in the fields of Boaz for grain to feed the two of them but nothing is said about a tithe offering for their support. But that's an academic side point at best. Everything I've read, and yes I know evidence is wanted here and maybe I'll dig some up, but everything I've read and heard about the tithe is that the Israelites gave much more than a tenth, just as the Christians do. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
But you are making these things rigid when they are not. God's never changing doesn't mean He doesn't deal with different situations differently, it just means that He can always be counted on to act in accordance with His unchanging principles of righteousness. He's consistent in other words.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Jesus was teaching a specific young man when he told him to give away everything he owned, that was NOT a principle for everybody. And sorry I guess I missed whatever you said about Elijah.
And besides it makes no sense to equate this teaching with the Communist dictum. ABE: Perhaps the incident with Ananias and Sapphira will answer your idea that giving away everything was supposed to be a basic principle. When God struck them dead it was for lying about what they were giving, not for the amount they had chosen to give. I think it was Peter who said -- one of the apostles anyway -- it was in their power to give whatever portion they wanted, but claiming they were giving all when they weren't was lying to God and that's why they died. Emphasis: IN THEIR POWER TO GIVE WHATEVER THEY WANTED. Meaning they had a right to the disposition of their property and no obligation to give all of it. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024