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Author Topic:   Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
jar
Member
Posts: 30837
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 46 of 56 (838856)
08-29-2018 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by 1.61803
08-29-2018 11:12 AM


Re: What the world is really is irrelevant.
golden writes:

Officially we are at war in the seven countries mentioned according to the unclassified portions of the report that the NY Times got ahold of.

What I think is even more important is that Congress is the body that declares a State of War exists and TTBOMK Congress has not declared that a State of War exists between the US and any of those seven nations.

We have gotten far too loose with using US aggression outside the limits imposed by our Constitution.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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caffeine
Member
Posts: 1473
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 47 of 56 (838883)
08-29-2018 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by 1.61803
08-29-2018 11:01 AM


Re: What the world is really is irrelevant.
There's an 'acknowledge reply' button for those circumstances when you don't know how to form a sentence without admitting error but can't bring yourself to simply ignore a post.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by 1.61803, posted 08-29-2018 11:01 AM 1.61803 has responded

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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2777
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 48 of 56 (838893)
08-29-2018 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by caffeine
08-29-2018 1:52 PM


Re: What the world is really is irrelevant.
And yet here you are not making use of it.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2777
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 49 of 56 (838895)
08-29-2018 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
08-29-2018 12:28 PM


Re: What the world is really is irrelevant.
Hi jar,

The US unfortunately has expanded it's ridiculous war on terror.

PUBLIC LAW 107–243—OCT. 16, 2002
AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY
FORCE AGAINST IRAQ RESOLUTION OF 2002
VerDate 11-

And the

The Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF), Pub. L. 107-40, codified at 115 Stat. 224 and passed as S.J.Res. 23 by the United States Congress on September 14, 2001

Here is a interesting Slate article:

https://slate.com/...at-war-in-at-least-seven-countries.html

Unless we change it the war on terror is anywhere the US says it is against anywhere the US says it is.

And yes that is really bad and need to be changed.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 08-29-2018 12:28 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17645
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 50 of 56 (839166)
09-04-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by caffeine
08-28-2018 3:02 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
caffeine writes:

My comment that "we're still the violent, brutish thugs we were 200,000 years ago" was in the context of evolution. We are not improving as a species regarding qualities like kindness, generosity, peacefulness, empathy, etc. To whatever degree we as a species possessed those qualities, and their opposites, 200,000 years ago we still possess them to the same degree today. Evolution doesn't work that fast.

I'm not so sure I agree with this. 200,000 years is certainly enough time for noticeable evolutionary change.

Oh, most certainly you are correct, 200,000 years is more than enough time to produce significant evolutionary change, depending upon generation time and adaptational pressures. I didn't express myself clearly enough.

200,000 years ago is just the approximate starting point of our species where I think we can agree that long before modern societies life was "nasty, brutish and short," to quote Hobbes. But over the past 200,000 years our species has demonstrated these qualities again and again. Any observed improvements are due to society moderating their expression, not to evolution gradually eliminating them. Proof is ISIS, the Taliban, the Khmer Rouge, Serbian atrocities against Croatia, etc.

These qualities emerge again and again when societal oversight breaks down. Evolution has not eliminated these qualities, nor is there even any indication of their moderation. ISIS lined up thousands next to trenches and shot them. Serbians lined up thousands next to trenches and shot them. The Khmer Rouge lined up thousands next to trenches and shot them. The Nazis lined up thousands next to trenches and shot them. In America whites lynched blacks with impunity well up into the 20th century. Racist and/or nationalist groups are springing up world-wide. Milgram's studies of obedience are object lessons for how cruelty can be transmitted throughout a group, and our own Congress's complicity in authoritarian provocations against our way of life also shows this (racial discrimination, family separation, etc.). I see no evidence of evolutionary progress.

So with these qualities being demonstrated so recently, not only could evolution not have played a role in their moderation, there is not even any indication that they've moderated. When societies crumble then violence and chaos and cruelty quickly emerge.

It seems very unlikely to me that the degree to which we possess traits like generosity, kindness, empathy etc has remained unchanged since the Pleistocene.

If such traits have evolved meaningly over the past 10,000 years, then doesn't it seem that entire regions descending into violent cruelty reminiscent of 10,000 years ago should not happen?

My own premise is that we are as a species behaviorally little different than we were 200,000 years ago. Remove the societal veneer and "nasty, brutish" behavior soon appears.

There's a cute little Twilight Zone episode called The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street about how easily a society can descend into violence and chaos. Worth watching.

--Percy


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Phat
Member
Posts: 11131
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 51 of 56 (839167)
09-04-2018 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
09-04-2018 1:10 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
I agree with you except I would modify one of your sentences.
When societies crumble then violence and chaos and cruelty quickly reemerge.

I agree that the social veneer is kept in place through improved standards of living.

Throw us in a depression globally and take away our cushy lives but give us access to the weapons of mass destruction (or the ability to vote into power someone who does) and our similarity to Nazi Germany will not only equal but exceed their barbarity. We may catch ourselves before we slip so far down, but necessity is a mother!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

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 Message 53 by Percy, posted 09-04-2018 4:06 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30837
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 52 of 56 (839168)
09-04-2018 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
09-04-2018 1:43 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
Phat writes:

Throw us in a depression globally and take away our cushy lives but give us access to the weapons of mass destruction (or the ability to vote into power someone who does) and our similarity to Nazi Germany will not only equal but exceed their barbarity.

But what about a depression that is not global but just the US?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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 Message 51 by Phat, posted 09-04-2018 1:43 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17645
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 53 of 56 (839169)
09-04-2018 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
09-04-2018 1:43 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
Phat writes:

I agree that the social veneer is kept in place through improved standards of living.

One counterpoint that can be thrown at the idea that a society is only as kind as it can afford to be is to ask why the Depression didn't create a less compassionate country. I think the answer lies in government's approach to the problem when under the Democratic administration of Franklin D. Roosevelt it instituted social security and public works programs to improve employment. Hoover Dam, built by private companies with public funding, was a big Depression era project. I think the government's compassionate attitude toward the people had an outsize influence on the country's attitude in general.

Parenthetically, it was another Democratic administration, this time under Lyndon Johnson, that made Medicare universally available.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


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 Message 51 by Phat, posted 09-04-2018 1:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 09-04-2018 4:14 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11131
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 54 of 56 (839170)
09-04-2018 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Percy
09-04-2018 4:06 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
The difference between now and then is the monumental national debt. Would you not agree? We couldn't simply create a social safety net out of thin air were it the US alone that suffers the next major depression, as jar seems to suggest.

The challenge for the US citizen in general, and notably the authoritarian populists specifically is to maintain our composure while the rest of the world moves on ahead of us.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Percy, posted 09-04-2018 4:06 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 09-04-2018 6:30 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30837
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 55 of 56 (839183)
09-04-2018 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
09-04-2018 4:14 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
Phat writes:

The challenge for the US citizen in general, and notably the authoritarian populists specifically is to maintain our composure while the rest of the world moves on ahead of us.

Nonsense. The challenge is to stop the madness that is current Conservatism and Neo-Fascism and spend our wealth on improving the general quality of life.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1699
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 56 of 56 (839185)
09-04-2018 10:37 PM


A Second $Trillion American Company
I'm not sure how to judge the news that Amazon has joined Apple as companies whose stock values have topped 1 trillion dollars.

If you own stock it is good news. I have never been a fan of Apple or their products, but I've always been a book person so I was an early fan of Amazon.

Amazon Hits $1,000,000,000,000 in Value, Following Apple


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


    
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