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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 1252 of 1748 (839331)
09-06-2018 3:42 PM


Any of you wise guys want to offer YOUR view of where history is headed?
You sit along the sidelines sneering at the Bible. Okay, do you want to offer your view of a climax to the world ?
Artificial Intelligence maybe - replacing us all ?
Taking our problems to some other planet and giving it another go ?
You're allowed to use your imagination.
Where do YOU see the world headed ?

Replies to this message:
 Message 1254 by ringo, posted 09-06-2018 3:49 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 1256 by Tangle, posted 09-06-2018 5:08 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 1270 by Aussie, posted 09-07-2018 1:58 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 1267 of 1748 (839376)
09-07-2018 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1248 by PaulK
09-06-2018 3:35 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
Which is quite true. Bit from the fact that the fruit is not a poison as Eve apparently feared and because at that point she could still have eaten from the Tree if Life and lived forever.
Don't know what can be done to help you if you want to be willfully wrong.
Literally the translation - ... you will surely die is more like - Dying you will die.
The serpent saying "You will not surely die" was a lie.
It amounts also to "NOT dying you will die."
What happened?
And all the days Adam lived were nine hundred twelve years,
and he died. (Genesis 5:5)
He surely died.
Dying he died as God had warned.
quote:
Which is quite true. Bit from the fact that the fruit is not a poison as Eve apparently feared and because at that point she could still have eaten from the Tree if Life and lived forever.
There is no reason given for them to die apart from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The warning was not "If you do not eat of the Tree of Life, you will surely die."
The warning was "eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will surely die."
You argue about potentiality - She could still have eaten of the Tree of Life and lived forever. What happened ?
Did they surely die or did they live forever ?
And all the days Adam lived were nine hundred twelve years, AND HE DIED. (Genesis 5:5)
Whose word turned out to be TRUE - God's or the serpent's ?
God's word turned out to happen.
The serpent LIED.
And you're lying to yourself to champion the serpent as the agent of truth there.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1248 by PaulK, posted 09-06-2018 3:35 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1268 by PaulK, posted 09-07-2018 12:38 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 1269 by ringo, posted 09-07-2018 12:52 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 1271 of 1748 (839381)
09-07-2018 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1269 by ringo
09-07-2018 12:52 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
Are you deliberately ignoring, "in the day that thou eatest thereof "?
For your interpretation to work, you have to mangle TWO things in the text. You have to mangle die into "spiritual death" and you have to mangle a day into nine hundred years. Occam must be spinning in his grave.
This matter of IN THE DAY ... you will surely die is not a major problem to me. Hebrew translators cannot insist that YOM everywhere always HAD to mean a solar day of IE. 24 hours.
The Recovery Version translates YOM in Gen. 2:4 as WHEN.
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created. WHEN Jehovah God made earth and heaven. (Gen. 2:4)
[my bolding]
The NIV and NLT also renders YOM there as WHEN.
New International Version
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
New International Version
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
Some English versions do translate the Gen. 2:4 YOM as DAY.
International Standard Version
These are the records of the universe at its creation. On the day that the LORD God made the earth and skies,
New Heart English Bible
This is the account of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
JPS Tanakh 1917
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created,
in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.
King James 2000 Bible
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
American King James Version
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
American Standard Version
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.
Douay-Rheims Bible
These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth:
Darby Bible Translation
These are the histories of the heavens and the earth, when they were created, in the day that Jehovah Elohim made earth and heavens,
We were just told that it was SIX days involved in the making of world.
So translators apply context decisions as to what is the likely clearest understanding of the use of YOM.
In that same passage above some render the sense of at the time
Christian Standard Bible
These are the records of the heavens and the earth, concerning their creation. At the time that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
GOD'S WORD Translation
This is the account of heaven and earth when they were created, at the time when the LORD God made earth and heaven.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
These are the records of the heavens and the earth, concerning their creation at the time that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
The Bottom line is that you have no case to INSIST that YOM can only be understood in as a typical solar day.
IE. " When you eat of it you will surely die. "
" At the time you eat of it you will surely die. "
Are valid ways to understand -
" ... for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen. 2:17)
So Adam physically ceasing to breath and ceasing to have a heart beat after many years in 5:5 still means at the time or when or on the day he ate he died, even though he physically lived on for 930 years.
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred thirty years, and he died. (5:5)
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1269 by ringo, posted 09-07-2018 12:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1272 by ringo, posted 09-07-2018 2:24 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 1273 of 1748 (839383)
09-07-2018 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1272 by ringo
09-07-2018 2:24 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
If anything, "when" is a narrower timeline than "day".
No it is not necessarily.
I don't see you as having any case. Desperation to assure yourself that God is a liar and the Devil is a champion of truth in Genesis doesn't work.
I think it tells us more about Ringo than about the Bible.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1272 by ringo, posted 09-07-2018 2:24 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1274 by ringo, posted 09-07-2018 2:43 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 1275 by Faith, posted 09-07-2018 4:27 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 1276 of 1748 (839405)
09-07-2018 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1274 by ringo
09-07-2018 2:43 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
You're the one who's desparate to assure yourself that the Bible doesn't say what it says.
Seems clear enough to me:
... for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. (2:17b)
OR
New International Version
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
Okay. To be fair .... here are a couple a versions interpret a typical day as you want it.
Contemporary English Version
except the one that has the power to let you know the difference between right and wrong. If you eat any fruit from that tree, you will die before the day is over!"
Good News Translation
except the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad. You must not eat the fruit of that tree; if you do, you will die the same day."
Those are paraphrased versions.
It is still not a major problem.
quote:
I have no axe to grind. I don't care what the Bible says any more than I care what Dilbert says.
That's why you have no axe, no sharp one at least.
Okay I gave you examples of the way you want to understand it.
Though you are now on a SOUR GRAPES attitude - "Well I didn't care anyway."
If you don't care for what the Bible says I don't know why your haunting the Bible Study room.
I have a slight suspicion that now that I have given you some English versions that interpret the Hebrew to mean something like the SAME DAY, you might just revive your apathy to say - "Told you so."
quote:
Genesis says what it says. If that doesn't tally with what you think it "should" say, that's too bad - but it still says what it says. They didn't die "when" they ate the fruit.
Um, You don't give a hoot what it says?
Or you do give a hoot what it says?
Which way from here on out ??
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1274 by ringo, posted 09-07-2018 2:43 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1277 by ringo, posted 09-07-2018 5:23 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 1278 by Tangle, posted 09-07-2018 5:42 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 1279 of 1748 (839425)
09-08-2018 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1275 by Faith
09-07-2018 4:27 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
Basically I'm with you on these beasts.
Many studies on Daniel and Revelation talk about the beasts, horns, locusts, etc. As you might see I have a desire to more closely examine Christ and the church, the overcomers, etc.
I think there is a shortage of emphasis on Christ and the church in End Times discussions.
But I admit many mysterious passages are devoted to the enemies of God.
You are probably going to fine me skewing my talk more in the direction of Christ and what is called the testimony of Jesus in Revelation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1275 by Faith, posted 09-07-2018 4:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 1280 of 1748 (839426)
09-08-2018 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1277 by ringo
09-07-2018 5:23 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
We're through.
You've made my job simplier.
Go enjoy your Dilbert.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1277 by ringo, posted 09-07-2018 5:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1290 by ringo, posted 09-08-2018 11:35 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 1281 of 1748 (839427)
09-08-2018 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1270 by Aussie
09-07-2018 1:58 PM


quote:
Most of the "Wise guys" you are having this conversation with are actually wise enough to not have to pretend to have some magical crystal ball insight into a predetermined future for humanity.
That would be you.
No, I claim no crystal ball.
What we do have is a track record of God's faithfulness. For instance Christ was prophesied to come the first time, by centuries. And He CAME.
We have very good fulfillment of prophecy AND indications of some of the WAYS in which God kept His word, testing men's hearts, leaving room for man's obedience, things like that.
We figure some of His ways have not changed. And as He fulfilled prophecy in the first coming with certain tests to those wanting and expecting His first coming, in like manner we can bet He'll do similarly.
No crystal ball.
I neither insist that I could not be wrong about some things.
We have the Bible to help interpret itself.
We have a taste for the way God moves.
We have a track record of God's previous faithfulness.
And we have the Holy Spirit to help guide us into the most pertinent aspects of the truth.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1270 by Aussie, posted 09-07-2018 1:58 PM Aussie has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 1282 of 1748 (839429)
09-08-2018 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1278 by Tangle
09-07-2018 5:42 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
Right, you need several interpretations of the word day.
How does that work? If it's an inconvenient version for you it becomes more than the time it takes for one lump of daylight and one of dark it can become something entirely different, like hundreds of years?
When it mentions Evening and morning - one day. that pretty much indicates to me the writer has a solar day being communicated.
I understand Genesis seven days as God recovering a world which had been in some unspecified time before verse 3 became waste and emptiness.
YOM in some other places, not being bounded with an evening and morning may conform to one of the OTHER legitimate meanings of YOM.
Strong"s Exhaustive Concordance - Hebrew / Chaldea Dictionary
Yowm or (yom) Entry 3117
"from an unusual root mean. to be hot .
a day (as in warm hourass),
whether lit. (from ssunrise to sunset, or fromone sinset to the next),
or fig. (a space of time defined bu an associated term),

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1278 by Tangle, posted 09-07-2018 5:42 PM Tangle has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 1283 of 1748 (839430)
09-08-2018 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1278 by Tangle
09-07-2018 5:42 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
Right, you need several interpretations of the word day.
How does that work? If it's an inconvenient version for you it becomes more than the time it takes for one lump of daylight and one of dark it can become something entirely different, like hundreds of years?
When it mentions Evening and morning - one day. that pretty much indicates to me the writer has a solar day being communicated.
I understand Genesis seven days as God recovering a world which had been in some unspecified time before verse 3 became waste and emptiness.
YOM in some other places, not being bounded with an evening and morning may conform to one of the OTHER legitimate meanings of YOM.
Strong"s Exhaustive Concordance - Hebrew / Chaldea Dictionary
Yowm or (yom) Entry 3117
"from an unusual root mean. to be hot .
a day (as in warm hourass),
whether lit. (from ssunrise to sunset, or fromone sinset to the next),
or fig. (a space of time defined by an associated term),

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1278 by Tangle, posted 09-07-2018 5:42 PM Tangle has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 1284 of 1748 (839431)
09-08-2018 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1278 by Tangle
09-07-2018 5:42 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
Right, you need several interpretations of the word day.
How does that work? If it's an inconvenient version for you it becomes more than the time it takes for one lump of daylight and one of dark it can become something entirely different, like hundreds of years?
When it mentions Evening and morning - one day. that pretty much indicates to me the writer has a solar day being communicated.
I understand Genesis seven days as God recovering a world which had in some unspecified time before verse 3 became waste and emptiness. A previous violent overthrow.
My belief is coined by some as "Gap Theory" - an interval of unspecified time between Genesis 1:1 and verse 2.
Bible says God MADE the earth in six days, not that He created it in six days.
YOM in some other places, not being bounded with an evening and morning may conform to one of the OTHER legitimate meanings of YOM.
Strong"s Exhaustive Concordance - Hebrew / Chaldea Dictionary
Yowm or (yom) Entry 3117
"from an unusual root mean. to be hot .
a day (as in warm hours),
whether lit. (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next),
or fig. a space of time defined by an associated term,
(often used adv.) + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily ... lasting, - more) x full, life+ elder, x end + old, + outlived,
season,
space
then,
process of time
as at other times, + in trouble,
weather, (as) when (a, the, within a)
while (that) x whole (+ age)
(full) year (-ly) + younger
It can be pretty technical. I am just copying from the Hebrew Dictionary as far as I am able to here. Some of it throws the Hyper Text into confusion.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1278 by Tangle, posted 09-07-2018 5:42 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1285 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2018 6:42 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 1286 of 1748 (839441)
09-08-2018 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1285 by Tangle
09-08-2018 6:42 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
Given that the bible is a collection of simple stories told to simple folk, a 'day' is actually a day. To say otherwise is simply lying to fit whatever it is you need to believe.
You think the writer of the details of the Tabernacle with all its precise measurements and technical specifications was just a "simple folk". I don't
You think the writer of the voluminous geographic description of the boundaries of the land of Canaan, how its was aportioned up between the twelve tribes was written by "simple folk". I don't.
You think the long histories of genealogical information was written by "simple folk". I don't.
You think the Table of Nations describing how humans divided and settled into tribes, clans, families, social groups was compiled by "simple folk". I don't think great amounts of the Pentateuch reflects the writing of "simple folk."
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1285 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2018 6:42 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1289 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2018 11:14 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 1287 of 1748 (839442)
09-08-2018 9:50 AM


simplicity verses naivete
"Now the serpent was more crafty than any other animal of the field that Jehovah God had made ... (Gen 4:1)
I learned a long time ago not to confuse [some] accounts of simplicity with naivete. Very good teachers are masters at their material to the extent that they can break down intricate and profound issues is quite eccesible ways for the consumption of many people.
Let's take the talking serpent for an example.
it is not just modern people who realize animals can't speak. Thousands of years ago people knew JUST AS WELL that animals are not suppose to talk.
God has a way of communicating a profound truth to the largest number of people in all generations. There is a great cosmic being and angelic creation of immense former authority. And he is a adversary to God and the eternal purpose of God. We will read more of him in future books of the Bible.
He is a creation of God yet turned himself to be the opposite of all that God is. He could not usurp God. So he became the opposite of all that God is. This situation God must communicate to the most number of people in the world for generations to come.
There exists an INTELLIGENCE in the universe beside God and beside Man. That intelligence is subtle, evil, diametrically opposed to God, and desirous to ruin the very meaning of man's reason for being created.
A speaking serpent will do the job. The most number of people in the world will get something of the truth. There is about an evil nemesis to God Almighty who is cunning enough to deceive the whole world. By reading ON the picture is filled in.
I learned not to mistake simplicity for naivete.

Replies to this message:
 Message 1288 by jar, posted 09-08-2018 10:47 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 1291 by ringo, posted 09-08-2018 11:42 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 1297 of 1748 (839454)
09-08-2018 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1275 by Faith
09-07-2018 4:27 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
The beast from the sea has all the characteristics of the beasts of Daniel 7 rolled into one: the lion of Babylon, the bear of Medo-Persia and the leopard of Greece, and the beast itself that has all these characteristics must be the Great and Terrible fourth beast from which the little horn comes, which is usually understood to be the Roman Empire in the time of Christ's first coming.
Yes, Antichrist, Shmantichrist. I do get a little tired of going though Revelation like the centerpiece is this guy, the beast, the Antichrist and his false prophet. I'm sorry.
I'll tell you what I would really like to spend some time on. It is the positive aspects of Christ as He addresses each of the seven churches. This stuff is not insignificant.
There are so very many talks about the beasts, the frogs, the demons, the locusts, the Antichrist, etc. etc.. That certainly has its place. But it doesn't have the only place.
Do you see how rich are the descriptions of Christ as He addresses the need of each of the seven local churches according to what He IS? Oh, that there were a few eager readers to talk about this.
He draws most of His recommendations from John's initial vision.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me; and when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 And in the amidst of the lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, and girded about at the breasts with a golden girdle.
14 And His head and hair were as white as white wool, as snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire;
15 And His feet were like shining bronze, as having been fired in a furnace; and His voice was like the sound of many waters.
16 And He had in His right hand seven stars; and out of His mouth proceeded a sharp two-edged sword; and His face shone as the sun shines in its power.
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last
18 And the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
See all these wonderful qualifications of Who Christ is ? We could spend a week just talking about all the qualifications of Jesus Christ as this Great High Priest.
Each aspect is so meaningful. Nothing here should be taken for granted.
What a Christ. What an all-encompassing Overcoming Lord and Savior.
This is the One Who is and Who was and Who is coming.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1275 by Faith, posted 09-07-2018 4:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1299 by Faith, posted 09-08-2018 1:31 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 1298 of 1748 (839456)
09-08-2018 1:22 PM


Christ - the main character
Faith,
Oh by the way,
I cannot remember who it was, but I think they were correct that the vision of the Son of Man coming on the clouds to the Ancient of Days is not a vision of His descending to the earth. I think I recall someone saying something like that. about Dan. 7. (albeit skeptically)
This is Christ coming on the clouds in His ascension to the Father to be inaugurated in heaven as King of kings and Lord of all. It corresponds to Revelation chapter 5 . His is COMING UP into the third heavens on the cloud to appear before the Ancient of Days.
Daniel 7:13,14
13 I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a Son of Man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before Him.
14 And to Him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve Him;
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and His kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 1300 by Faith, posted 09-08-2018 1:32 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 1305 by Phat, posted 09-08-2018 3:48 PM jaywill has replied

  
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