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Author Topic:   REMIX: Who Can Be Saved?
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 64 of 138 (839209)
09-05-2018 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
09-05-2018 10:19 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:
Can we rise above our innate self-centeredness, arrogance, and character without Gods help?
If we are to succeed then yes, regardless of whether or not we get any help we need to rise above our innate self-centeredness.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 09-05-2018 10:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 09-05-2018 10:55 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 138 (839218)
09-05-2018 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
09-05-2018 11:34 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
But there is no such thing as a fallen position.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 11:34 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 77 of 138 (839274)
09-05-2018 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by ringo
09-05-2018 5:42 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
ringo writes:
Faith writes:
The man is a man and the story in Eden is historical.
The other problem with that is that there was never a time in history when there was only one man and one woman. It's biologically impossible. Therefore, it's another miracle or another metaphor or another fairy tale.
Or a "Just So" story that was meant to explain why people fear snakes, why we had to farm instead of being hunter/gatherers, why childbirth seemed more painful for humans than other animals, why we wear clothes unlike any other animal, why we have a society based on rules and consequences and most importantly why women must be subject to and inferior to men.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 09-05-2018 5:42 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 138 (839362)
09-07-2018 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
09-06-2018 11:54 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:
Well, there's the Bible. Doesn't matter what you think of it, it does testify to supernatural phenomena and has been accepted as the truth by millions over millennia. There is testimony in most cultures and religions around the world of encounters with supernatural beings. Many cultures and religions have elaborations of an afterlife, both paradises and hells. Buddhism and Hinduism do. Hades preexisted the English idea of Hell, and preexisted the Bible for that matter. Today there are "near-death" experiences" which I think are satanically engineered but they do testify of a spiritual life beyond the merely physical.
But none of those are evidence of anything other than evidence that humans can hold beliefs not based on evidence.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 09-06-2018 11:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 09-07-2018 6:27 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 98 of 138 (839413)
09-07-2018 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
09-07-2018 6:27 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:
Witness evidence IS evidence and there's TONS of it for these phenomena.
LOL
Where are the tons of witnesses of what happened in the Garden of Eden?
AbE: And witness evidence is the absolute weakest least reliable evidence possible. Further, there are NOT tons of witnesses of any supernatural event.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 09-07-2018 6:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 09-09-2018 11:45 AM jar has replied
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 09-10-2018 7:22 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 100 of 138 (839507)
09-09-2018 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
09-09-2018 11:45 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:
If as you say it is but a story, the readers are the witnesses of what happened in the Garden of Eden.
And if God is simply a character in a book, all we are witnesses of is what the book says.
Do you believe that God exists outside of the book? Not asking if you know...that would require evidence. Which also explains why you always ask how anyone would know.
Do you believe that God exists outside of the book...or any book....yes or no?
As I have pointed out in this very thread, my personal beliefs are irrelevant beyond being my personal beliefs. Is there any reason you should be allowed to know my personal beliefs beyond what I have already posted at EvC?
If I believed that God existed would that even have any meaning?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 09-09-2018 11:45 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 09-09-2018 11:59 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 102 of 138 (839512)
09-09-2018 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
09-09-2018 11:59 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:
jar writes:
If I believed that God existed would that even have any meaning?
Good question. Do you think that there would be any way for you to know?
Know what? Certainly I can know what I believe but would that have and reality beyond just knowing what I believe?
Does what a person claims to believe have any relevance in whether or not you are influenced by what they claim to believe?
Are you more likely to agree with what an atheist points out what is written in Genesis 2&3 or what a believer says in written in Genesis 2&3 or would you actually go read Genesis 2&3 and see for yourself what it says? Can you read Genesis 2&3 and just accept what is actually written or must you filter it through the additional layers of Dogmatic Apologist additions and revisions?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 09-09-2018 11:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 09-09-2018 2:25 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 104 of 138 (839522)
09-09-2018 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
09-09-2018 2:25 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:
First of all, why would I have any reason to mistrust the apologists? How do I know that their interpretation is any worse than what I may come up with through a plain reading? What type of reality are you hinting that I must accept?
You mistrust anyone that tells you what something means and instead go and read the actual source and see what is actually written.
Phat writes:
For example, you believe(correct me if I'm wrong) that the story teaches that God gave us the gift of discernment and that this is enough...that we should not expect any other interference, guidance, or help from God.
As usual, you are wrong. I say that the Genesis 2&3 story says that we learned right from wrong. Actually the Genesis 2&3 story doesn't tell us anything about what we should do with it which should be yet another clue that that is NOT the only topic. It does go on to list a bunch of things, why we fear snakes, why childbirth seems more painful for women, why we are farmers not hunter gatherers, why we wear clothes instead of just staying naked, why we have a society based on rules and why women should be subject to men.
Phat writes:
In fact, you believe that there is no evidence that God interferes with or guides, adjusts, and charts peoples destiny.
Again, stop trying to say what I believe until you learn how to do it without being constantly wrong. I have asked repeatedly for anyone to provide any evidence of any supernatural interference, guidance, adjustment or charting of peoples destiny and so far no one has ever provided any such evidence of any supernatural interference, guidance, adjustment or charting of peoples destiny.
Phat writes:
So in answer to whether I would trust an atheist's plain reading vs some believers, I would say no....I'll stick with the believers. And yet you claim to be a believer and yet teach that I Must do what needs to be done in my life. Its just not how I was taught is all. You may as well be an atheist.
So you will deny reality because you do not like the content of a message. Got it.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 09-09-2018 2:25 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 138 (839542)
09-10-2018 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
09-10-2018 7:22 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:
Witness evidence is the only possible evidence for this sort of phenomena and there is lots of it. If you discount it as you do then of course you have no evidence at all, but you're just fooling yourself in that case.
That does not change the fact that witness evidence is still about the weakest possible evidence subject to the greatest amount of error.
But a bigger issue is included in your assertion itself when you say "Witness evidence is the only possible evidence for this sort of phenomena ...". Why is witness evidence the only possible evidence and if true, why does that not set off alarm bells and warnings that say "Wait, discount this evidence"?
In looking at everything else in reality it is possible to find evidence other than witness evidence so what makes you think that something that can only be detected by witness evidence actually exists?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 09-10-2018 7:22 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 09-10-2018 7:49 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 108 of 138 (839545)
09-10-2018 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
09-10-2018 7:49 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:
How are you going to have any other kind of evidence for spiritual or supernatural phenomena than witness evidence?
I don't know of anyway including witness testimony that there could be evidence for spiritual or supernatural phenomena. You are the one claiming witness testimony is evidence.
And as I have said witness testimony is the least reliable most error prone possible evidence. If you wish to use such pitiful evidence then you must show how it can be of value or relevance. For example how can evidence supporting some Christian God be any more relevant or valuable than the evidence for the Hindu or animist or Greek or Norse Gods? How is anything you post better evidence than "There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is His Prophet"?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 09-10-2018 7:49 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 133 of 138 (861649)
08-24-2019 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by AZPaul3
08-24-2019 7:00 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
FUD
Fear Uncertainty & Doubt
IBM and NCR became world powers by selling FUD.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by AZPaul3, posted 08-24-2019 7:00 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
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