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Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
Hyroglyphx
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Posts: 5583
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 31 of 93 (839657)
09-12-2018 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
09-10-2018 10:34 PM


Re: In Brief
I have a hard time grasping this idea. It sounds like "works-righteousness" or legalism, rather than salvation by faith. There are plenty of struggles in the Christian life, some of them due to misunderstanding it, some due to our own sin problems, some due to spiritual warfare with the satanic hordes, and some due to conflicts with the world with which we find ourselves increasingly at odds as we grow; and probably other causes I'm not thinking of. But I would think that once one has "tasted" God ("Oh taste as see that the Lord is good") nothing on earth could possibly compete.

My point being that I found it to be a farce based on what I wanted to be real, but ultimately concluded was not. But if it means something to you, I by no means would try to convince you otherwise. If it provides meaning in your life then I wish you well.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

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Faith
Member
Posts: 29527
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 32 of 93 (839659)
09-12-2018 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Hyroglyphx
09-12-2018 3:22 AM


Re: In Brief
I couldn't care less about "meaning." If it isn't true it's worthless, and of course I believe it to be true.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 11130
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 33 of 93 (839665)
09-12-2018 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
09-12-2018 6:34 AM


Re: In Brief
Of course how can we know something to be true? We can believe it, and in the case for Jesus, as an example, I say that I know He is alive and interacting with me and within me 100% but I cant present this as truth to others....its only truth for me...I cant insist that it must be true for others...the onus is on them to find truth as they desire it
I watched a great atheist/christian debate. The Christian speaker had many anecdotes and evidence that was undeniably persuasive to me, for I too have experienced the supernatural...which he discusses. But Matt Dillahunty, the atheist, had a logical counterargument which I cant honestly say is wrong. I cant define truth for everyone. Only God can do that, and I cant represent God to others...I can only represent myself.

Here is the debate I watched:


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

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 Message 32 by Faith, posted 09-12-2018 6:34 AM Faith has responded

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 Message 36 by Taq, posted 09-12-2018 6:13 PM Phat has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29527
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 34 of 93 (839667)
09-12-2018 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
09-12-2018 3:24 PM


Re: In Brief
If it's true it's true, Phat, it's true for everybody, there is no such thing as truth for some but not others. There's also plenty of evidence: the Bible is evidence. Still, God has to open people's eyes.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Taq
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Posts: 7553
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 35 of 93 (839676)
09-12-2018 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
09-11-2018 1:25 PM


Re: In Brief
Faith writes:

And when atheists do get converted it's often when they've come to recognize that they were wrong about this.

Atheists do convert to religions all of the time, and religious people deconvert to atheism all of the time. I really don't see how you can read anything into this.


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 Message 30 by Faith, posted 09-11-2018 1:25 PM Faith has responded

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 Message 40 by Faith, posted 09-14-2018 3:02 AM Taq has responded

  
Taq
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Posts: 7553
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(3)
Message 36 of 93 (839677)
09-12-2018 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
09-12-2018 3:24 PM


Re: In Brief
Phat writes:

Of course how can we know something to be true? We can believe it, and in the case for Jesus, as an example, I say that I know He is alive and interacting with me and within me 100% but I cant present this as truth to others....its only truth for me...I cant insist that it must be true for others...the onus is on them to find truth as they desire it

As an atheist, what you describe is something that goes against the basic skepticism that is part of my worldview. For me, at least, something doesn't become true simply because I desire it to be true. Skeptics/Atheists tend to look for objective truths which are truths independent of our wishes, hopes, and opinions.

I guess it boils down to faith.

Phat writes:

I watched a great atheist/christian debate. The Christian speaker had many anecdotes and evidence that was undeniably persuasive to me, for I too have experienced the supernatural...which he discusses. But Matt Dillahunty, the atheist, had a logical counterargument which I cant honestly say is wrong. I cant define truth for everyone. Only God can do that, and I cant represent God to others...I can only represent myself.

The (rhetorical) question this atheist has is how you can know that you have experienced the supernatural?

For the skeptical mind it is hard to differentiate between your mind fooling yourself and claims of supernatural interaction.


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 Message 33 by Phat, posted 09-12-2018 3:24 PM Phat has responded

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Phat
Member
Posts: 11130
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 37 of 93 (839688)
09-13-2018 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Taq
09-12-2018 6:13 PM


Re: In Brief
Taq writes:

The (rhetorical) question this atheist has is how you can know that you have experienced the supernatural?

For the skeptical mind it is hard to differentiate between your mind fooling yourself and claims of supernatural interaction.

You bring up a valid point. For me, one question I had was how much I should trust my internal experience as opposed to how much I should question it. I tend to be biased at trusting my gut rather than allowing myself to critically examine and question what I have experienced.
The basic conclusion of the theist begins at 1:08:55.

Perhaps I take a stand in faith on what I have experienced due in part to confirmation bias whereas...as you point out...a true skeptic would not embrace faith so easily.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Taq, posted 09-12-2018 6:13 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Taq, posted 09-13-2018 2:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7553
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 38 of 93 (839705)
09-13-2018 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
09-13-2018 8:40 AM


Re: In Brief
Phat writes:

Perhaps I take a stand in faith on what I have experienced due in part to confirmation bias whereas...as you point out...a true skeptic would not embrace faith so easily.

That is probably what separates the theist and atheist. For the purposes of this thread I don't think it necessary to say that one approach is better than the other. The main point is to understand what the differences are so we can understand each other a bit better.


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 Message 37 by Phat, posted 09-13-2018 8:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1218
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 39 of 93 (839725)
09-13-2018 8:44 PM


What differences between Christianity and Atheism
Christianity had something of a start in time (though it heavily borrowed from previous Jewish sects and even mainstream "Judaism" itself). Christianity is a monolith today but the further back you go in time, you sees lots of diverse views (so diverse that the major doctrines today seem increasingly contradicted by the earlier communities).

Atheism might be a monolith but does it have any real roots?

When did it start?

How much did it borrow from other movements?

Are its followers a monolith today?


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 Message 45 by Taq, posted 09-14-2018 4:39 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29527
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 40 of 93 (839731)
09-14-2018 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Taq
09-12-2018 6:06 PM


Re: In Brief
And when atheists do get converted it's often when they've come to recognize that they were wrong about this.

Atheists do convert to religions all of the time, and religious people deconvert to atheism all of the time. I really don't see how you can read anything into this.

What I said is true: when they convert it's often because they've come to recognize that the Bible is not man-made.


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 Message 35 by Taq, posted 09-12-2018 6:06 PM Taq has responded

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6080
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


(3)
Message 41 of 93 (839732)
09-14-2018 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by LamarkNewAge
09-13-2018 8:44 PM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
LamarkNewAge writes:

Atheism might be a monolith but does it have any real roots?

It's not a monolith and it has no roots. It's just a bunch of unorganised people who don't believe in god(s)

When did it start?

when people started thinking for themselves

How much did it borrow from other movements?

It's not a movement

Are its followers a monolith today?

No


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 711
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 42 of 93 (839737)
09-14-2018 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by LamarkNewAge
09-13-2018 8:44 PM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
Atheism might be a monolith but does it have any real roots?

When did it start?

How much did it borrow from other movements?

Are its followers a monolith today?

Atheism is just a response to a claim. i.e. Do you believe in a god or gods?

In an of itself, it is nothing more than that. In the same way theism is a response to the same claim. But theism in an of itself does not have any specific tenets or concepts since it isn't a religion.

Certain religions are theistic. Or polytheistic. And for that matter, there are some religions like buddhism that are atheistic. Whether someone is a theist or an atheist does not say anything about their specific belief system.

For atheists like myself, the only reason that label even exists is I live in a society where religion has a large presence. But being an atheist doesn't in any way affect my worldview since it has no core tenets or philosophies.

A better description of myself as it pertains to specific beliefs is that I am a secular humanist. Although deists can also be secular humanists.

In short, atheism is merely a response to a claim. Secular humanism is a a philosophical stance that focuses on the value and agency of human beings.

Edited by Diomedes, : Fixed typo


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ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 43 of 93 (839738)
09-14-2018 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by caffeine
09-10-2018 2:39 PM


Re: The Discussion is not as simple as Tangle concludes
caffeine writes:

Yes, isn't that exactly Secular Humanism is? It's a Christianity substitute for ex-Christians who miss Christianity.


I suppose you could think of it as conscience without the supernatural mumbo-jumbo added. Unfortunately, religion also subtracts some of the conscience.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 7553
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 44 of 93 (839757)
09-14-2018 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
09-14-2018 3:02 AM


Re: In Brief
Faith writes:

What I said is true: when they convert it's often because they've come to recognize that the Bible is not man-made.

What I said is true as well. When christians convert to atheism they've come to recognize that the Bible is man-made. Besides, it says right in the Bible that it was written by humans.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


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 Message 40 by Faith, posted 09-14-2018 3:02 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7553
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 45 of 93 (839758)
09-14-2018 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by LamarkNewAge
09-13-2018 8:44 PM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
LamarkNewAge writes:

Atheism might be a monolith but does it have any real roots?

When did it start?

How much did it borrow from other movements?

Are its followers a monolith today?

Atheism is as monolithic as not collecting stamps or not playing golf. It has the same roots as not believing in Bigfoot.


This message is a reply to:
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